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Living off the grid

The Revolting Man

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Lately I've been thinking a lot about living as independently of the system as possible. Its often called living off of the grid or a sustainable lifestyle. I am not interested in it as a "hide from the New World Order" or environmentalist thing. I just don't know how much longer this system will be around or allow me to participate in it. Also it seems like it would lead to simple living that is consistent with living in the world but living not being a part of it. I'm really interested in independent power generation and simplicity (but not giving up hygiene, sorry cleanliness being next to Godliness my not be in the Bible but its still good policy). Anyone out there looking into this or even trying to achieve it?
 
I agree, I've learned to skin and gut and am probably taking up hunting either this year or next depending on weather I have enough spare funds for a riffle this year. Fishing is alright too. I havn't gotten into power generation yet, but my family is working on getting some land so we have enough space to create a garden to sustain us all year (instead of just a few months like our city plot provides)

We also want to raise buffalo, bigger and more natural in our area, and tastier in our opinion. You need better fencing though.
 
This is such a great desire of mine, but not likely for me. I wish everyone well that gets the opportunity to do so. Just one comment though, if the society is destroyed and you are the only one in the neighborhood with food, watchout for those who will attempt to take it from you at any cost.
 
While living off the grid is not an immediate goal for our family, living a self-sufficient lifestyle is. We desire to produce as much of our own food as possible and to be debt free, so we aren't required to work away from home. This is a very long-term goal, but we've taken steps each year to get us closer to that goal, such as:

Gardening and preserving as much of the summer produce as possible for the winter
Raising all our own meat (except fish) and eggs
Raising a milk cow for our dairy needs
Having our own water supply

We've accomplished an awful lot, but we have a very long way to go. My husband, RMS on this board, is the mastermind and brains of the operation. I'm just the manager! While the self-sustaining lifestyle is alot of hard work, it is definitely full of rewarding experiences!

Hope this helps!
Katie
 
Wow, Kate it sounds like you guys are actually doing it already. This has always been a tug in the back of my mind but lately its become more pressing.

Tlaloc, don't know what your level of familiarity with guns are but may I suggest a simple single shot rifle like the Ruger No. 1 if you haven't shot a lot before? They're simple, accurate, will last for generations and are very safe. A caliber like .30-06 or .308, that will take most reasonable game and will probably always be available no matter what the scenario, is also reccomendable. Some of the newer rounds will never be prevelant and many of them wear out barrels pretty quickly. Apologies if this is a subject you're familiar with.

Thanks for the websites, I really enjoy reading about this subject. I'm interested in micro-hydro power and incinerator powered steam turbines too. In a crisis refrigeration would be a major life saving tool.
 
Actually that's very good information Zephyr. I don't have any gun familiarity myself, my wife has some from some military training, but both my church and my parents are big hunters, so when I do go to buy I will take either my Mom or my Pastor with me depending on who is free. So far I've only priced things out. Simple and accurate is exactly what I'm looking for, and I like having something specific to look into, so Ruger No.1 sounds like something to seriously look into.

Standardized ammo is a big thing to me too, my stepfather is a big weapons collector and has been selling off a lot of his non standard stuff to buy things that take NATO standard ammo since Obama got in office :).

I've had a terrible time getting good gun info online, esp when it comes to purchasing locally, so something to look up is a real asset for me.
 
Guns are like anything else, everyone has an opinion but the truth is they're not that complicated and you don't have to spend a lot of money. It seems like I bought a No. 1 for under $400 a few years ago. It was used of course but it works great and I have every expectation that my grandchildren will get it one day.

The thing to keep in mind is the kind of game and the terrain you'll be hunting. If you hunt cornfields or prairies out west you want a heavy, long barreled rifle with a good scope. However, if you're hunting in hills, mountains or thick dense woods you'll appreciate something a little lighter and shorter with the smallest scope possible. I live in the foothills of the Appalachians so I prefer a very short barreled (18 inches in this case, its actually a little too short for the .30-06 I have it chambered in) rifle with iron sights. Out here its EXTREMELY rare to get a shot as far out as 100 yards so a scope just isn't worth it to me.

Caliber is a little more subjective. In the old days my .30-06 was considered about as powerful a round as was needed for North American game. You wanted to be careful with grizzly and buffalo and elk is an extremely tough animal, but the round would get the job done with proper shot placement. These days there are dozens of proprietary and wildcat rounds that claim to be the end all of shooting, or niche rounds that only attempt to do one thing at all. Most American hunters would never take .30-06 bear hunting anymore and some consider it overkill for whitetail deer. I like the .30-06 because it comes in so many variations you can have one rifle fulfill multiple roles, but also because its been around for a long time and is powerful and unrefined. But, it has more kick and doesn't deliver anymore power than the .308 when firing similar sized bullets. Its also considered less accurate because it requires a longer action. I could go on and on but I would be boring you. The short of it is, based on your desire for a reliable game round that is in service with NATO and so probably will always be available, you want the .308. Its very accurate, is as powerful as you need it to be and doesn't beat your shoulder up or cost too much to shoot. It is a NATO round. Its also called 7.62x54mm and its fired out of the M60 and 240. You can get almost any rifle chambered in it and it is the standard sniper round for the US military too. The M16 round (called the .223 or 5.56x45mm) is considered too small for most game. Its pretty much a varmint round, although it is an excellent round for what its designed for.

The two rifle companies too at least research (in my oh so humble opinion) are Ruger and Savage. Both make rifles on the lower end of the price scale. Ruger is known for incredibly durable, well built and acceptably accurate rifles in a plethora of calibers. Savage is considered to make the most accurate out of the box rifles on the market that are also durable and well built, although their modern design leaves the weapons looking a little industrial. I personally have a soft spot for Ruger because the company's founder was such an interesting man and because I think a weapon should be as simple and durable as possible and still fulfill its intended role. You really couldn't go wrong with either company. Winchester makes good weapons too but is a little pricey to me. Weatherby is way too pricey. Two companies I've heard good things about but am unfamiliar with personally are Saiko and CZ. They would probably be worth looking into as well. Thompson Contender also makes a really slick gun, but they only make a single shot.

Which brings us to the next question, what kind of action? Your choices are single shot, bolt action, lever action or semi-automatic. You can pretty much rule out semi-automatic right away because of price. It will be very hard to find a semi-auto .308 for under $1,500. Examples though would be the M14 (M1A1) or the AR-10. Both are fantastic weapons. A word of caution on the M14, if you look it up make sure you are looking at the M1A1 and not the M1 Garand. The Garand was the American battle rifle in WWII and shoots my beloved .30-06. Its a beautiful weapon but for two reasons, not a good survival gun. A lever action (classic cowboy rifle) can also be almost completely ruled out because the .308 is not well suited to the kind of magazine you have to use on lever actions and so is rarely chambered in it.

Where the .308 is usually found is in a bolt action. These rifles have a handle sticking out the side and after every shot you rotate the handle up and a pull it back and then push it forward to charge the rifle. These are excellent rifles. They're accurate, reliable, simple and allow quick follow up shots if one is needed.

There are two types of single shots found today. The first is the break action. This exactly like an old shotgun that hinges in the middle and you push and shell inside the back of the barrel and then close it. The Thompson Contender is an example of this kind of rifle. It is the simplest form of rifle you can buy and so tend to be the least expensive too. However, single shot rifles do not allow you take quick follow up shots. They have to be taken out of the shoulder and reloaded everytime. You have to be a good shot. An added bonus is that they are very safe.

The other form of single shot found today is the falling block. They look a little like a lever action but function completely differently. By rotating the lever forward you allow a block that covers the back of the barrel to lower and that exposes the chamber and you slide the round in, rotate the handle back and you're ready to fire. They are a little more complex (but only barely) than a break action but are also a little more elegant. The Ruger No. 1 is the only sporting rifle of this type you'll find. Although there are Sharps rifles on the market as well. They're almost always chambered for the .45-70. This round does meet any of your criteria.

Of course my suggestion to anyone is a No. 1 in either .308 or .30-06. But in reality that has no advantage over a Thompson in one of those calibers. Just my suggestions. Its so nice to feel like I know something on this board for once.
 
Zephyr, I knew I liked you for some unspeakable reason! LoL Seriously, love your advice on rifles. You do know what you are talking about! I love to shoot and have to force myself to keep my arsenal from growing out of hand and pocketbook. I would just like to add one thought, in addition to the '06 or .308, may I recommend a good .22? For small game and predators it is ideal and cheap to purchase and shoot, also perhaps one shotgun. I would love to live off the grid and build a straw bale house, but pastors generally need to be where the people are. Maybe on the new earth?
 
My husband and I have had this on our hearts for a long time. We are only in the process of learning how we can begin to become self sufficient. It has actually been a deep desire of ours to have a small farm. We feel that God has been putting it into the hearts of people for a long time. If nothing happens during our generation that has made it absolutely necessary to live like this, we feel it is important to pass on to our children. We can learn and make all the mistakes now and then our children will be pros at it, just in case the worlds systems go down hill in their days of adulthood or in our grandchildren's days of adulthood.
 
One of the benefits that TC and I have found since moving from Southern California to the Cherokee Nation (found in NE Oklahoma) is the ability to be off the grid. There are many people here doing that, and have their entire lives. It mainly is among the more traditional Cherokee communities but you will find people who have no electricity, indoor plumbing, and live in log cabins (hand built) with "dirt" floors (its not really dirt but thats what a city slicker would call it.). They have their well, a smokehouse for meat, and their outhouse and life is good in the Nation.

For meat raising- goats and rabbits have a good meat to feed ratio for self sufficiency. Goats also can provide plenty milk production for a family where as a dairy cow will easily produce more than what an average family might need, depending on how many children. Goat milk is great for making soap. Pigs are good also if you are into that, but many areas have wild pigs which are non-native and are very destructive to farmers so you can hunt those. Chickens are good and keep bugs down in the yard.

As for rifles and that such, for true off grid, get into traditional black powder. Black powder guns tend to have less regulation in US and if needed it is possible to make a form of black powder at home and one can cast their own balls. Firearms are useless with out the amo to use in them.
There are plenty of families here that live on the deer meat they hunt, which is easy to do since the is a 6 deer limit. So TC gets 6, I get 6, and our son gets 6, and that provides about 1,800 pounds of meat for the year. Plenty to feed and barter. Then the is the turkeys, dove, squirell, and pigs to hunt as well.
 
A .308 Winchester is the other thing that's been recommended to me, and it was a Ruger that I was looking at in the store. The only thing is that they're forest hunters whereas I live on an extremely open prairie, there are a few areas I can go to get some bush and hills but long shots are more common. There is no grizzly to be concerned about, and no wild buffalo to shoot, but I know what you're saying about shot placement with buffalo. I've heard more than a few times about buffalo getting out of hand on the way to slaughter and the transporter (used to cows) shoots it on the forehead between the eyes. That goes south pretty quick as their skulls are extremely thick there...

The .308 caliber does sound pretty much like what I'm looking for. I don't have much use for small game rounds since I take that on by hand (with a trap or dog and axe\club\stick). I agree with the simple and durable philosophy and that with accuracy is pretty much what I'm looking for.

I haven't gotten any information on the action situation before, so that's all a gold mine for me. Single shot is what I prefer both for the safety and because I put a high value on accuracy. The .308 I've shot was a bolt action, and I don't mind that either. Semi-Auto doesn't appeal to me for any practical reason so I don't think I'll even look into it.


Black powder riffles appeal to me for both what T-C said and because one very large region next to me (just outside my city) doesn't allow standard riffles, so I have a couple reasons to go that way eventually. A composite bow deserves a mention here as well, they have even less regulation than a black powder gun and if you had too you could make functional ammo for one. I'll probably eventually go down the composite bow path myself, though given enough time I would probably want a black powder riffle as well.


Had to smile about the 'Average family' comment on a polygamist board :D

Goats milk is very good, but milk in general is not a priority for us. Chickens and eggs are though, but its low on the list so far, and first we need more land to do anything other than hunt and fish. So, all in time.
 
Wow, so much to comment on.

John Brings up an excellent point about the .22. You can buy a 1,000 rounds of it for $25 and .22 LR will take small game. You can live off of squirrels is you need to. A shotgun would also by nice. You can't go wrong with a 12 guage.

The problem is that, like John says, pretty soon your gun case is too small and your bank account is drained.

Someone mentioned that they were trying to be self-sufficient for their children, which of course I really like. But someone else mentioned needing land. There's the rub. I am surrounded but National Forest but that doesn't allow me to forge a lifestyle, only survive if they day ever comes when I have to. Land is almost impossible to afford now days, at least out east and I have to stay here to be near my children. Also, you can't get it financed (which I am not 100% comfortable with anyway) unless you have 30% down. Its a conundrum to say the least.
 
I guess I should make a comment about black powder too since it was brought up. Black powder is fun and challenging, but it is NOT anymore self-sufficient than modern bullets. You will still have to stock pile it because even if you know how to make your own the ingredients are not just found anywhere. And even though in theory you can cast your own bullets, you have to have quantities of lead laying around and wadding (usually cloth in the old days). Lead of course is toxic and black powder, well they used it in guns for a reason. It explodes. Storing large quantities of it in the home doesn't get the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval.

On top of that it isn't any cheaper to shoot, isn't as accurate, as powerful or have the range of modern cased bullets. I'm NOT saying that it doesn't have its place, isn't challenging or entertaining shooting, isn't an acceptable hunting choice or a valuable connection to our past. Its just not a good choice if you're going to have one gun that has to do everything. I personally have been wanting a .72 caliber black caliber rifle I saw in an outdoor catalog once. They say its the biggest bore rifle you can own according to the feds. It looks like a cannon.

Oh, and who mentioned rabbits? They have a good feed to meat ratio? Have you had good luck raising them?
 
This seems like an interesting topic. I just thought I'd share some of our experiences.

We moved to Ohio’s Amish Country partially because we wanted to learn more about self sufficiency and living without electricity. One of the first places we lived in the area was a 200 acre Amish farm that we rented with two other families, one Amish and the other Mennonite. It was mostly a great learning experience, no electricity, except for in the main barn and broiler house, which we usually ran a generator. Of course we cheated a bit and had an electric line from the barn to the kitchens so we could have electric refrigerators (gas refrigerators are much smaller and expensive). The farm had a gas well which meant we had free gas and so everything was gas operated, we even had gas lights which we hated in the summer time.

Well the farm is long gone but it was a lot of fun and mostly a good experience. Today we live as self sufficient as possible. We grow a large garden every year and preserve the produce. We have an orchard. We keep chickens and have a couple of beef steers; mostly grass fed which is free. We are debt free we own our vehicles, land and home free and clear. We decided to have electricity once again though. It is difficult to live without some kind of power source (electric, gas, compressed air) we found that the cheapest thing to install and setup for is electricity, but it is not so cheap to produce our own so currently we pay the electric company for ours.

I don’t think everybody has to live like this but I do think it is a good idea and important for all of us no matter where we are to be as free as we can from the world’s systems. Of course that is going to be different for everyone; different goals, different abilities, different desires, different areas, etc. But I have found that we have cut our living expenses by more than half of what we spent 7 or 8 years ago; I attribute that mostly to producing our own food. We are healthier today and have more energy than what we can remember from the past. It is a lot more work though, but another upside is working together as a family and that is the main reason for us in living this way.
 
We would have had a shot at land if we both decided to work, but we weren't willing to do that, its easier to buy here though, and we don't need anything like 30% to get financed. Prices have inflated like mad in the last 3 years though, so it may take a lot more effort now. Blessedly we bought the house we had before the prices jumped and you can get more for the price in the country than you can in the city, if we keep improving our house now it will make it much easier to get out of town. Faithful in a little eh?


Sounds like you gained a lot through the experience Ephraim
 
We have about two and a half acres now and the possibility of maybe buying more off the farm behind us later on. We have two steers they are a year apart in age. We’ve found we eat about one beef per year so we worked out a system. Every year we butcher the oldest beef, which is about two years old, and we buy another bull calf. Then next spring we will repeat the process. Some friends of ours, who are nearby, have about 40 acres and do the same thing we do with the beef steers, so we keep ours at their place once large enough. It is better for the animals if they can run together. We don’t have to pay anything because it doesn’t cost anything. Our friends actually prefer having another beef or two sharing the field it keeps the grass down and they don’t have to mow. We do trade a bit of work back and forth with our friends. One thing we have realized is we can’t really be 100% self sufficient, we do need to have a few friends with similar goals nearby that we can share work with when needed.
 
Just had to stick in my two cents worth. As to firearms, single shots are nice, but no more accurate than a decent bolt gun unless you get into specialized bench rest rigs. You can't go wrong with a .308 Win. It will do about everything you want except stop charging bears. Proper bullets and placement will allow you to hunt them if you feel the need tho'. The Savage model 110 has been around for quite awhile and gives really good value for the $ as a subsistence gun, even if the current versions aren't real pretty. In the Savage, you may as well get the .30-06 because the gun has a long action anyway. In .308, they just add a filler block in the mag well. Personally, I like big bores. My #1 choice of a rifle if I could have only one is my Marlin .444 lever action carbine. It is effective with modern loads and can be loaded with black powder and cast bullets in a pinch. Once you have a good supply of brass and primers you're pretty well set. I keep several boxes of primers (1000 ct) stored safely for reloading and shoot a lot of cast bullets in mine. It'll also stop anything that walks the North American continent and has been used in Africa to take buffalo and elephant. It's not as much of a powder hog as the 45-70 either.

While squirrels and rabbits can provide meat, never use them exclusively as they don't supply all the amino acids the human body needs for survival. My Escape & Evasion instructors told us that a person would starve on a diet of rabbits. They must be supplemented with other protein sources. Beans, legumes, fish, and big game are good sources in addition to chickens and domestic livestock. I believe that for most subsistence hunting I would use a good recurve, crossbow, or compound bow. With one of them. a person can hunt anything from birds, to squirrels, to big game. The advantage is that you can usually re-use your arrows and, in a pinch, you can make your own.

A large garden would be a must to provide a balanced diet for health. I would also go for some livestock (including milk cows), because you'd be amazed how quickly serious hunting pressure can move game out of the immediate area. Cows and horses can also be used to help plow, reducing the need for dependence on gasoline.

There was a series of books put out years ago (sorry I can't remember the title) by the University of NC (I think) that contained information gleaned from old folks living up in the Appalachians who'd been pretty much self sufficient since the country was settled. They had a lot of good info. I'll have to do a search to see if I can get better info.

Dave
 
Shimon said:
There was a series of books put out years ago (sorry I can't remember the title) by the University of NC (I think) that contained information gleaned from old folks living up in the Appalachians who'd been pretty much self sufficient since the country was settled. They had a lot of good info.

Are you by any chance referring to the FoxFire series? Still available, and still good reading as well as useful.
 
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