This is a less common view and perhaps should be labeled meat?
It has a carnivores title....I will let a moderator decide.
I have been pondering a bit on the comments shared in the thread “Hashing out the First Two Wives” but did not want to derail that thread.
The general idea being shared is that we need to learn how to become one (echad/united) with the other bride (the brides being Judah and Israel) and it is suggested that this is what YHWH purposes to do and wants to see happen. Where we see things differently then most is not related to whether or not the above statement is true, but in understanding the timeline for that fulfillment.
While most seem to be looking ahead and expecting Jews and Christians to come together, and many evangelicals are working actively toward that goal, I would like to present a perspective from scripture that suggests a different timeline, one that saw that prophesy fulfilled 2000 years ago. It is always good to consider things from another angle or side. Please if you share a different understanding, support it from scripture and history. I am happy to provide references for any aspect.
I believe most of the animosity between the two modern “brides” stems not from the original conflict between the House of Israel and House of Judah, but from a case of mistaken identity and different natures of the two modern groups. History relates that two groups of cousins that YHWH said were” two manners of people” got intermixed before the time of Christ. These two groups were the children of Israel (Jacob’s posterity) and the children of Esau/Edom, also called Edomites and Idumea. The Jewish encyclopedia tells about Herod the Great, and if he is any example of Edomite nature and values it becomes apparent that their nature is more in harmony with the values of Babylon then the kingdom of heaven.
Yeshua/Jesus warned of wolves in sheep’s clothing. I believe He was referring to those Jews that were not Israelite and had retained the hunter nature inherited from Esau. Jesus told some to their face that “My word has no place in you because you are not my sheep” He also told a parable that revealed the real reason that these purposed to kill Him, NOT because they did not recognize Him as the Messiah, but because they DID recognize Him as the heir and wanted Him dead so they could seize His inheritance!
There is ample evidence that this mixing happened, but most are not aware of the radical differences in the prophetic futures of these two groups. YHWH calls Edom a “Destroying Mountain” (nation) and promises to make her most desolate (like mystery Babylon), while Israel is promised a new covenant, a new heart, a new spirit, and new land and a new NAME. There is even a prophesy reminiscent of a scene from the modern Cinderella story Ever After that says “I will cause those who say they are Jews and are not….to come and worship at your feet and know that I have loved you”
Now no one wants to be the bearer of bad news. The young prophet Samuel had the very unenviable first assignment of telling his loved father figure Eli that his house was to be cut off. We really don’t want to think about genocide or a group being condemned because of where they came from…..but it is there, and it doesn’t go away. I am certain that those dividing lines will become clear at some point and He will bring to pass what He has spoken.
Now there were actually three main groups being dealt with in the Apostolic writings.
1. The House of Judah, also called Israel because they were not divorced. these had returned from Babylon and were preserved so Messiah could be born as prophesied under the law and fulfill all that was written concerning him.
2. The wolves/Edomites that the Apostles were sent out among.
3. The “Gentiles” or more accurately the “Nations” of Ephraim who has been cast into the nations and were not being called “Israel” because of being divorced from YHWH.
Now Paul applied prophesies spoken to those ten tribes to these gentiles. He also wrote about the unity that all believers shared in Yeshua Messiah and about How Yeshua had broken down that wall of partition to make of twain one new man. There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male or female. Now those around Judea knew where those of the diaspora were back then. When Yeshua said “Where I am going you cannot come” they said “ ….will he go to the dispersed among the Greeks and teach the Greeks?”
At this point most should be able to see that the ten tribes were in the group called Gentiles. We know that multitudes followed Yeshua, and that even on Pentecost there must have been those of Judah among those 3000 souls that were baptized meaning there was a remnant at least of Judah in the unified body of Christ. Now here is another little tidbit. When the ten tribes went into Assyrian captivity a portion of the house of Judah went too! This means that a portion or remnant of Judah was also in that group called gentiles!!
My big problem with the current common understanding is that it doesn’t recognize those two portions of Judah that converted and like the prophesy in Ezekiel foretold “became one (Echad/united) in his hand.” The way most believe, those today called Jews represent the tribe of Judah and this unification of the two houses will have a future fulfillment.
I get chills when I read that just ten years after the crucifixion there were ARMIES in Europe marching under the cross. Those disciples did as instructed and took the good news to the “Lost sheep of the house of Israel” (including part of the house of Judah) and they HEARD the message and FOLLOWED!
In the other thread there was a passage in Isaiah mentioned as referencing a “third bride” but it is talking about the same people groups. What jumped out at me was what He said He would do to those that did NOT come when He called. “I will appoint them to slaughter….because they did not come…..and they chose that in which I do not delight” Now those Edomites that did not have ears to hear would have stayed in the synagogues…..and kept right on sacrificing animals which I believe YHWH said He took no pleasure in. (For the record, all of our children that have herded sheep would do the same to sheep that would not follow and went their own way instead!)
So when I put it all together I get that those two houses came together so flawlessly that they were and are no longer seen as two….and people who missed that prophesied name change and are still looking for Jews wrongly try and make those that are really not, a part of latter day Israel/the bride.
Now when people want to call it replacement theology to claim that “The church” is the Israel of today….I feel like showing them all those passages showing that the sheep followed Messiah into this age and are called by a new name, and saying this is FULFILLMENT THEOLOGY! And when people claim that “The Jews are God’s chosen people” or “The Jews are the tribe of Judah” I really would like them to explain to me what happened to the descendants of those that did convert….and where they believe those that “call themselves Jews” are, who’s claim is called blasphemy.
Now in the course of studying this matter over the years there is an interesting passage in Micah that to me indicates that a remnant of Judah WAS left behind in Judaism! It says that “They will smite the judge of Israel on the cheek with a rod…….for this cause will He give them up until such time as she who has labored has brought forth, then shall the remnant be reunited with their brethren” what I get out of that is that there are those (maybe they are those descendants of Judah who’s” blindness in part” persisted?) who’s hearts are right who will wake up to the reality of the kingdom after it is manifested……after the daughter of Zion has labored and fighting with Michael has beat the dragon and gained the first dominion.
I really am the sort that gives individual people of faith the benefit of the doubt and lets them stand or fall in the master’s eyes. I share this in hope that others may dig in and at least study and evaluate the merit of this understanding….because from here the real replacement theology is looking at wolves (anti-christs) ….and calling them sheep.
“Those that are NOT against us are on our side” “Judge by fruits” “You are children of…..the living God” “You are children of…..your father the devil” Whether you believe it is genetic or choice there are two and only two sides. The longer things go the easier it should be to see the fruits.
“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature” “You will not have gone over the CITIES of Israel before the son of man comes”
It has a carnivores title....I will let a moderator decide.
I have been pondering a bit on the comments shared in the thread “Hashing out the First Two Wives” but did not want to derail that thread.
The general idea being shared is that we need to learn how to become one (echad/united) with the other bride (the brides being Judah and Israel) and it is suggested that this is what YHWH purposes to do and wants to see happen. Where we see things differently then most is not related to whether or not the above statement is true, but in understanding the timeline for that fulfillment.
While most seem to be looking ahead and expecting Jews and Christians to come together, and many evangelicals are working actively toward that goal, I would like to present a perspective from scripture that suggests a different timeline, one that saw that prophesy fulfilled 2000 years ago. It is always good to consider things from another angle or side. Please if you share a different understanding, support it from scripture and history. I am happy to provide references for any aspect.
I believe most of the animosity between the two modern “brides” stems not from the original conflict between the House of Israel and House of Judah, but from a case of mistaken identity and different natures of the two modern groups. History relates that two groups of cousins that YHWH said were” two manners of people” got intermixed before the time of Christ. These two groups were the children of Israel (Jacob’s posterity) and the children of Esau/Edom, also called Edomites and Idumea. The Jewish encyclopedia tells about Herod the Great, and if he is any example of Edomite nature and values it becomes apparent that their nature is more in harmony with the values of Babylon then the kingdom of heaven.
Yeshua/Jesus warned of wolves in sheep’s clothing. I believe He was referring to those Jews that were not Israelite and had retained the hunter nature inherited from Esau. Jesus told some to their face that “My word has no place in you because you are not my sheep” He also told a parable that revealed the real reason that these purposed to kill Him, NOT because they did not recognize Him as the Messiah, but because they DID recognize Him as the heir and wanted Him dead so they could seize His inheritance!
There is ample evidence that this mixing happened, but most are not aware of the radical differences in the prophetic futures of these two groups. YHWH calls Edom a “Destroying Mountain” (nation) and promises to make her most desolate (like mystery Babylon), while Israel is promised a new covenant, a new heart, a new spirit, and new land and a new NAME. There is even a prophesy reminiscent of a scene from the modern Cinderella story Ever After that says “I will cause those who say they are Jews and are not….to come and worship at your feet and know that I have loved you”
Now no one wants to be the bearer of bad news. The young prophet Samuel had the very unenviable first assignment of telling his loved father figure Eli that his house was to be cut off. We really don’t want to think about genocide or a group being condemned because of where they came from…..but it is there, and it doesn’t go away. I am certain that those dividing lines will become clear at some point and He will bring to pass what He has spoken.
Now there were actually three main groups being dealt with in the Apostolic writings.
1. The House of Judah, also called Israel because they were not divorced. these had returned from Babylon and were preserved so Messiah could be born as prophesied under the law and fulfill all that was written concerning him.
2. The wolves/Edomites that the Apostles were sent out among.
3. The “Gentiles” or more accurately the “Nations” of Ephraim who has been cast into the nations and were not being called “Israel” because of being divorced from YHWH.
Now Paul applied prophesies spoken to those ten tribes to these gentiles. He also wrote about the unity that all believers shared in Yeshua Messiah and about How Yeshua had broken down that wall of partition to make of twain one new man. There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male or female. Now those around Judea knew where those of the diaspora were back then. When Yeshua said “Where I am going you cannot come” they said “ ….will he go to the dispersed among the Greeks and teach the Greeks?”
At this point most should be able to see that the ten tribes were in the group called Gentiles. We know that multitudes followed Yeshua, and that even on Pentecost there must have been those of Judah among those 3000 souls that were baptized meaning there was a remnant at least of Judah in the unified body of Christ. Now here is another little tidbit. When the ten tribes went into Assyrian captivity a portion of the house of Judah went too! This means that a portion or remnant of Judah was also in that group called gentiles!!
My big problem with the current common understanding is that it doesn’t recognize those two portions of Judah that converted and like the prophesy in Ezekiel foretold “became one (Echad/united) in his hand.” The way most believe, those today called Jews represent the tribe of Judah and this unification of the two houses will have a future fulfillment.
I get chills when I read that just ten years after the crucifixion there were ARMIES in Europe marching under the cross. Those disciples did as instructed and took the good news to the “Lost sheep of the house of Israel” (including part of the house of Judah) and they HEARD the message and FOLLOWED!
In the other thread there was a passage in Isaiah mentioned as referencing a “third bride” but it is talking about the same people groups. What jumped out at me was what He said He would do to those that did NOT come when He called. “I will appoint them to slaughter….because they did not come…..and they chose that in which I do not delight” Now those Edomites that did not have ears to hear would have stayed in the synagogues…..and kept right on sacrificing animals which I believe YHWH said He took no pleasure in. (For the record, all of our children that have herded sheep would do the same to sheep that would not follow and went their own way instead!)
So when I put it all together I get that those two houses came together so flawlessly that they were and are no longer seen as two….and people who missed that prophesied name change and are still looking for Jews wrongly try and make those that are really not, a part of latter day Israel/the bride.
Now when people want to call it replacement theology to claim that “The church” is the Israel of today….I feel like showing them all those passages showing that the sheep followed Messiah into this age and are called by a new name, and saying this is FULFILLMENT THEOLOGY! And when people claim that “The Jews are God’s chosen people” or “The Jews are the tribe of Judah” I really would like them to explain to me what happened to the descendants of those that did convert….and where they believe those that “call themselves Jews” are, who’s claim is called blasphemy.
Now in the course of studying this matter over the years there is an interesting passage in Micah that to me indicates that a remnant of Judah WAS left behind in Judaism! It says that “They will smite the judge of Israel on the cheek with a rod…….for this cause will He give them up until such time as she who has labored has brought forth, then shall the remnant be reunited with their brethren” what I get out of that is that there are those (maybe they are those descendants of Judah who’s” blindness in part” persisted?) who’s hearts are right who will wake up to the reality of the kingdom after it is manifested……after the daughter of Zion has labored and fighting with Michael has beat the dragon and gained the first dominion.
I really am the sort that gives individual people of faith the benefit of the doubt and lets them stand or fall in the master’s eyes. I share this in hope that others may dig in and at least study and evaluate the merit of this understanding….because from here the real replacement theology is looking at wolves (anti-christs) ….and calling them sheep.
“Those that are NOT against us are on our side” “Judge by fruits” “You are children of…..the living God” “You are children of…..your father the devil” Whether you believe it is genetic or choice there are two and only two sides. The longer things go the easier it should be to see the fruits.
“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature” “You will not have gone over the CITIES of Israel before the son of man comes”
