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LET'S TALK ABOUT THE BOOK OF HEBREWS

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What was Paul (or whoever wrote it) trying to say? Who was the book written to? Was he trying to say that those who follow the old way were holding onto an idea that God had changed, or modified to a new way? Who was to bring forth the heir, Hagar or Sarah? Why was Paul trying to stop the early church from returning to its Jewish roots? Was Paul saying that the Son of God (Jesus) was greater than Moses? What priesthood had a higher order according to the book of Hebrews? Is the temple a physical thing or made up of the body of Christ?
 
I suspected as much. The direction it would go is the truth, but that can't be allowed.

How about this. I'll back out and ya'll have it.
 
Cap said:
What was Paul (or whoever wrote it) trying to say? Who was the book written to? Was he trying to say that those who follow the old way were holding onto an idea that God had changed, or modified to a new way? Who was to bring forth the heir, Hagar or Sarah? Why was Paul trying to stop the early church from returning to its Jewish roots? Was Paul saying that the Son of God (Jesus) was greater than Moses? What priesthood had a higher order according to the book of Hebrews? Is the temple a physical thing or made up of the body of Christ?
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Well I’ll be your huckleberry. The book was written to Torah keepers, the eponymous Hebrews. They were not be told to not return to “Jewish” roots as Judaism is only barely referenced in the Bible, not existing at all prior to the events described in Esther but really taking form with Ezra. They were being told to not return to the sacrifices. The new temple will be in the New Jerusalem.
 
They were told not to return to, the sacrifices, the old temple, the Levitical priesthood, and the Old Covenant itself is what is considered "Jewish" roots as far as I know. The book of Hebrews, therefore, makes it very clear that we now have a better Sacrifice, a better temple, a better priesthood with a better covenant, something that takes place of the old.

I appreciate your comment.
 
Well so far I disagree with both @The Revolting Man and @Cap they were not told to stop sacrifice. The sacrifice only stopped because the temple was destroyed a bit later.
 
Pacman said:
Well so far I disagree with both @The Revolting Man and @Cap The sacrifice only stopped because the temple was destroyed a bit later.
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I don’t think you’ve thought this argument out all the way. The end conclusion behind this statement is that its ok that we don’t sacrifice now, because there’s no Temple to sacrifice at, and that was one of the conditions for sacrifice.

However, the problem with this approach becomes one of optics, because since God doesnt change, either
  1. He didn’t care about the sacrifices in the first place, they were just a placebo, and really was of no use, (which calls into question the validity and origin of Torah). OR . . .
  2. This “all powerful” God is not powerful enough to protect his own Temple from a bunch of puny humans, so that his worshippers can continue to obey and worship their God as he demands, or . . . .
  3. He deliberately allowed his sacred Temple to be violated and destroyed, so that none of his followers can achieve righteousness, because He secretly planned to destroy them all anyway.
If your belief or Torah commands sacrifice, and your excuse is a missing Temple, then the logical solution is to move Heaven and earth to solve that problem, not to use its absence as a justifiable excuse ad infinitum.

In contrast, my view of the Temple’s destruction is due to the fact that they were still sacrificing animals and so God removed that possibility for the foreseeable future. Not forever, but til the mindset is “blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord”. Even if the “He” is Jesus Christ.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
However, the problem with this approach becomes one of optics, because since God doesnt change, either
  1. He didn’t care about the sacrifices in the first place, they were just a placebo, and really was of no use, (which calls into question the validity and origin of Torah). OR . . .
  2. This “all powerful” God is not powerful enough to protect his own Temple from a bunch of puny humans, so that his worshippers can continue to obey and worship their God as he demands, or . . . .
  3. He deliberately allowed his sacred Temple to be violated and destroyed, so that none of his followers can achieve righteousness, because He secretly planned to destroy them all anyway.
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Bro these possibilities are not the only choices. There are multiple examples throughout the scriptures of judgment coming on the Israelites and it resulting in them being unable to carry out parts of the Torah. That's actually part of the punishment. Even the first temple was destroyed during one of the judgments...

Verifyveritas76 said:
In contrast, my view of the Temple’s destruction is due to the fact that they were still sacrificing animals and so God removed that possibility for the foreseeable future.
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There is no evidence to suggest that the judgment came because they were still following the instructions given them. (sacrifice) that's eisegesis.

Verifyveritas76 said:
Not forever, but til the mindset is “blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord”. Even if the “He” is Jesus Christ.
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Amen
 
I had to read and reread Hebrews about thirty times beginning to end over the course of about 20 days before I really began to fully grasp what the writer of Hebrews is saying. The entire book is a singular argument against what you’re saying @Pacman. Followers of Christ are not children of the bond woman and are not under the Law. We are saved by grace through faith apart from the Law, through the promise to Abraham. The Law was added later because of transgressions to be a schoolmaster to drive us to Jesus the Messiah. Those who are unsaved are under the Law which accuses them day and night, because they do not measure up. For a believer the Law tells us what good works are and the mind of God on matters such as marriage, divorce, kindness to neighbors, etc. Followers of Messiah are children of the free woman and are not subject carnal ordnances. That’s Hebrews in a nut shell.
 
Pacman said:
Bro these possibilities are not the only choices. There are multiple examples throughout the scriptures of judgment coming on the Israelites and it resulting in them being unable to carry out parts of the Torah. That's actually part of the punishment. Even the first temple was destroyed during one of the judgments...



There is no evidence to suggest that the judgment came because they were still following the instructions given them. (sacrifice) that's eisegesis.



Amen
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Here’s the problem, we all must go through Christ now. There’s no room for argument there. But the sacrifices were a substitute for Christ so if they were still in effect it would be possible for someone to say “I don’t need Jesus to forgive my sins, I performed the sacrifices.” That is of course vile heresy and can not be countenanced. Paul makes pretty clear that sacrifices and the priesthood are done away with.
 
The Revolting Man said:
But the sacrifices were a substitute for Christ
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This is not true nothing ever was a substitute for Messiah. It was and will be a picture of Messiah.

The Revolting Man said:
Paul makes pretty clear that sacrifices and the priesthood are done away with.
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Where?

Acts 21:26 NASB
Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Seems like odd behavior for a man who believes sacrifice is done away with.
 
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I am in a searching stage with a lot of scripture after coming to an understanding of PM, so I am having to reevaluate everything I have been taught and am watching this conversation with interest.

This topic has me scratching my head a bit. Could someone help answer these?

1. Must the Father have a sacrifice for there to be "balance in the force" so to speak, or is his son something he freely gave?

2. Does the blood of Jesus or an animal make us clean, or are we to write the spirit of these on our heart in the form of humility, self sacrifice, love and submission to the Father? I.e. does Jesus show us how to get right with the Father by dying of self, or did his blood do something in its very nature to satisfy a need for blood on the part of the Father?

3. If we are to have these concepts written on our hearts, once they are, what does a continued animal sacrifice do? If it points to Jesus, who then shows us how to sacrifice ourselves, and we then die too as living sacrifices, wouldn't the animal sacrifice be redundant or circular?
 
Pacman said:
Bro these possibilities are not the only choices. There are multiple examples throughout the scriptures of judgment coming on the Israelites and it resulting in them being unable to carry out parts of the Torah. That's actually part of the punishment. Even the first temple was destroyed during one of the judgments...
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This is a valid point. There was another temple destroyed due to transgression and periods where they were unable to sacrifice. However there is a prime distinction between that example and the second temple destruction. There is an abundance of scripture to indicate why it was destroyed and why building and sacrifice should resume.

That is not the case with the destroyed second temple. In fact, it’s a glaring void in Christianity history and culture.

Instead, the New Testament writers exhorted multiple times that our sacrifices are to be distinctly different. Even if there is one record of them still sacrificing for a nazirite vow (performed contrary to Torah)


There is no evidence to suggest that the judgment came because they were still following the instructions given them. (sacrifice) that's eisegesis.
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On the contrary, Daniel 9:27 says
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,

Isaiah 66:3

He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

This^^^^^^ is what they were doing in the temple post crucifixion. All commanded, and all abomination.

And before you think that Rome desecrated it between the crucifixion and destruction and that’s why it’s abominable and thus destroyed, you should check the history of it out much closer as nothing like that is recorded that I can find in that period. Thus it’s destruction has to be laid at the people who controlled it.
 
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:17‭-‬19 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/mat.5.17-19.NASB

There. Yeshua said it. Not a single letter will pass until all is accomplished.

Instead of figuring out how to annul or throw pieces out, you best start figuring out how they fit and still have relevance. Whatever you don't understand, hold with an open hand or set aside while sorting out the rest.

Christianity ingrained in us the INvalidity of the Law, yet with poly we find they were wrong. We had to unlearn some paradigms.

Well, Christianity is wrong on other parts, too. When God says His Torah is PERFECT and EVERLASTING we might ought to believe it, even if we don't understand it.

I recommend Psalm 19:7-14.. then, Psalm 119 when you understand 19.

Shalom.
 
tps26 said:
1. Must the Father have a sacrifice for there to be "balance in the force" so to speak, or is his son something he freely gave?
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The Son was a free gift by the Father and the Son was a sacrifice of His own free-will. He prayed not my will but thine be done. the example of Abraham and Isaac is also a type and shadow.

tps26 said:
2. Does the blood of Jesus or an animal make us clean, or are we to write the spirit of these on our heart in the form of humility, self sacrifice, love and submission to the Father? I.e. does Jesus show us how to get right with the Father by dying of self, or did his blood do something in its very nature to satisfy a need for blood on the part of the Father?
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The blood of bulls and Goats could never atone for sin. they were also a type and shadow of the coming sacrifice of Christ. We are actually Saved by grace through faith! However, God's justice could not forgive sin and ignore the penalty that He himself imposed on it. The soul that sinneth shall surely die! Jesus' death paid the penalty that God's justice demanded, yet provided a solution for God's justice as well. Since Jesus was not guilty of sin and therefore not worthy of death God allows Jesus' death to substitute for the one we deserved. Now God's justice is preserved and He is able to offer Grace to us! He does this through our faith and repentance. Our salvation is that the Holy Spirit is imparted to us working in us regeneration. This was not available to us Till after the resurrection and actually after Pentecost! Just as the High Priest sprinkled the Blood on the day of Atonement in The Holy of Holies, Jesus (after His resurrection) entered the heavenly tabernacle and sprinkled His own blood to bring the evidence of His death and to cleanse the heavenly sanctuary of the stain that sin had brought there.

tps26 said:
3. If we are to have these concepts written on our hearts, once they are, what does a continued animal sacrifice do? If it points to Jesus, who then shows us how to sacrifice ourselves, and we then die too as living sacrifices, wouldn't the animal sacrifice be redundant or circular?
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Yes! Sacrifices in the past looked forward in type and shadow to the real sacrifice of Christ that would put away the penalty of sin for those who would repent and believe. Sacrifices will be resumed in the future to teach, by example, the sacrifice that Christ already has made. We now, who believe, have no need for sacrifice except that of our selves as a living sacrifice to the service of God.
 
PeteR said:
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:17‭-‬19 NASB
https://bible.com/bible/100/mat.5.17-19.NASB

There. Yeshua said it. Not a single letter will pass until all is accomplished.

Instead of figuring out how to annul or throw pieces out, you best start figuring out how they fit and still have relevance. Whatever you don't understand, hold with an open hand or set aside while sorting out the rest.

Christianity ingrained in us the INvalidity of the Law, yet with poly we find they were wrong. We had to unlearn some paradigms.

Well, Christianity is wrong on other parts, too. When God says His Torah is PERFECT and EVERLASTING we might ought to believe it, even if we don't understand it.

I recommend Psalm 19:7-14.. then, Psalm 119 when you understand 19.

Shalom.
Click to expand...

I had hoped that this thread would stay mostly in Hebrews, and contrary to @FollowingHim's accusations that this was going to be (or more accurately that I was trying to start) another Torah/Non Torah debate, and see what that frame of reference had to offer. And not rely on canned old testament catch phrases to proves ones position, in hopes that going through the book of Hebrews would reveal what it really means, and what Paul was saying about following old ways of worshiping God, compared to the new way he was putting forth. Was Paul making a distinction between the old way and the new in the book of Hebrews?
 
“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:17‭-‬19 NASB

It is not that the Law or the Prophets will stand till heaven and earth pass away! It is rather that heaven and earth shall not pass TILL all is fulfilled. as each part is fulfilled that part is fulfilled or is not now enforce! example: the prophets predicted the birth of Jesus, that part is fulfilled and those predictions are not now valid as far as to predicting a future event! Jesus made the sacrifice for sin and further sacrifices are not now required in that respect. Yes, there are other predictions yet to come to pass and they shall, but when they do, they wil not be predictions anymore! Yes Jesus operated (for the most part) as under the Law. He was in the overlap of Law and Grace. Grace could be accessed at the preaching of John the Baptist but the Law actually ended at Pentecost!
 
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