Lamentations of a single woman.

[Andria]

I have been a member of BF for awhile but have never really been very active here. Let this be a semi-introduction as well as a 'singles issue'.

I've been interested in polygamy for a couple of years. At first I wasn't sure it was for me, but I at least supported it. Along the way, I felt a peace from God about it being a potential part of my future. I've gotten to know many people who share the same interest in polygamy and have shared my life with a few different couples in an attempt to see if we could have a future together. Since I am still single, we all know how well those all worked out

Most recently, I spent some time getting to know a couple who I grew very close to in a short amount of time. They were both quickly becoming my best friends. Although we weren't physically together, we shared our day-to-day lives together. I felt a real sisterhood with her and felt real love and respect for him as a future husband. We were able to have our first and second in-person meetings this month. The second was just this last week. It was a beautiful day. It solidified what I knew I had already been feeling. It was my first time meeting a couple in-person, same for them. What was one of the best days I can remember having was followed up by a day and a half of near silence from them. That's when he informed me that he had to end our relationship. While his wife thought of me already as a sister, she decided she can't be a plural wife. I guess actually seeing it in front of her for the first time was too much of a shock to her system.

It's safe to say I've since been licking my wounds. I don't even know if I have any coherent thoughts formed yet about the experience. Except that I hate that it happened...I hate the pain I'm feeling. I know eventually I'll gain more clarity about it all, but all I can think is "Why?!" I honestly don't have any resentment for her...I know she didn't intend to have this happen, and she's just dealing the best way she knows how.

But how does a single woman move forward from this? What precautions should she take? Are there signs to look for? Are there better questions to ask? I guess ultimately I feel like it's unavoidable...you have to be prepared to suffer some pain. I just wish I knew how to better protect myself while still being able to open up to a couple.

 

[blugrniz4u]

Wow...been there, done that.

The best advice I can offer is when talking with the wife is to ask her the hard questions...people watch certain programs and think how fun/nice but when faced with the reality that you would actually want to have physical relations with the husband that green-eyed monster pops up.

Remember the old saw "if mama aint happy, no one is happy".

Some husbands think the potential will magically fix whatever is wrong in their marriage...NOT. If the wife feels neglected and feels that her needs are not being met (whether physically, financially, emotionally, or a bit of everything) the husband should not pursue any relationship until all in his house is in order. Why would a potential get involved in a unhappy home?

A godly husband submits to his wife's needs, as she submits to his lead. When her needs are met, she will feel safe and secure. A true poly woman will want to share that feeling of safety and security because she realizes what a wonderful man the husband is and wants other women to know it too.

Poly isnt for everyone and you dont want to involve yourself in a family full of strife and animosity where the wife is being forced to accept another woman.

Lick your wounds, but thank heaven for finding out NOW and not waaaay down the road (like moved in and all).

From my personal experience and that of close friends is when the wife makes first contact, you will find a happy couple/family who is ready to open themselves to you and all the wonderful blessings of the poly life.

 

[Isabella]

Hello Andria,

I am SO very sorry you went through this, it must have been terribly painful but I hope you realise that it was a blessing that she realised it when she did and not at a much later date, I also hope that she has continued to keep in touch with you and not drop your friendship, as that will only elevate feelings of being used.

Sadly there are a LOT of dreamers out there, people who like the fantasy to the point of seeking but bolt when reality sets in, it is not the first time I have come across people doing that and I am sure it won’t be the last.

It is important to not give your heart away on line, yes it is important to share but don’t plan, it is important to talk about what YOU have been doing and what YOU want to do, but do not plan what WE are going to do. I have seen many people emotionally invest themselves in a personal relationship online, start planning what they are going to do when they get to X location, even talking about what chores will be divided up or what decorating needs to be done, all before meeting in person.

Hold something back until you know there could be more, but even then there is no sure thing, even on this board there have been tales of women being put out by the legal wife. Make sure the people you put your trust into are worthy of that trust and don’t give anything away, least of all your heart, until that point.

Keep your chin up, there are many good people out there.

Bels

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Check your pm box.

Dr. Allen

 

[Andria]

Thanks for your perspectives.

I am very thankful indeed that I found out now rather than later. I know I'll be okay and I know God had a hand in it all. He was certainly there holding my hand through it. He still is.

What I've come to realize (and probably could have realized sooner if I'd been looking for it) is that this woman loved every bit of poly and me when she was fully included. She really struggled when it came to me being alone with him or having a private conversation with him. When they were last here, we had a truly great day together. We cooked a meal together and went to the lake and threw around a football and were lazy in the grass, went for walks on the trails, etc. Everything about it was fun and beautiful and add to that great weather in the midst of some storms we'd been experiencing. It just felt like God had his hand on it all. Her attitude changed when he and I went for a walk on our own. She was taking care of their son and was the one who suggested we just spend some time by ourselves. But I saw through the facade.

I told her early on what I believed was important in a poly marriage was that, while we all have a relationship together, we all also must nurture our individual relationships. Him and me, him and her, and her and me. She actually said then (and I don't think I realized how drastic this was) that she didn't want to have those times of any one of us three being alone. It's not realistic or healthy, in my opinion, to expect that. I think if I'd been the type who didn't need that individual time, it may have worked out. But I can't and won't pretend I don't need and want that. And that goes for her too, I wanted an individual relationship with my soon-to-be sister. She didn't mind that either...she was fine with the three of us together and she was fine with me and her going off and having girl time, but she didn't ever want to be excluded. I wish I would have noticed the signs earlier.

One thing I can say I'm thankful for is at least having the experience of what it *could* be like. You never really know how you're going to handle this life until it's right in front of you, and that's why I don't resent this woman. But the same could have been said for me. I really didn't know how I would handle it until it happened. I can say with confidence that it feels natural to me. Her on one arm, me on the other, it felt right. I am so looking forward to finding the right couple that God has in store for me, if that is His will.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Sorry this happened.

There is a way around this look for an unmarried man who believes in polygyny. Then you will not be turned down by his wife. After you marry him you can look for a single woman with him.

 

[Isabella]

Sorry this happened.

There is a way around this look for an unmarried man who believes in polygyny. Then you will not be turned down by his wife. After you marry him you can look for a single woman with him.

Which would essential drastically cut down on her opportunity to live Polygamously since there are more couple than singles.She is in a better position for her own needs right now, but she got a frog the first time, lets be honest here, people expect to run into a few frogs in Monogamy, you have to look at Polygamy in the same way, it is just a simple fact that many people love the idea of Poly(any flavour) but when it comes to the realities of living it they back off, this can cause a lot of hurt in its wake, sometimes it takes a couple a few times and a few broken women behind them before they realise that they are the problem, not the women they choose.

The common wisdom is being prepared to shake through the chaff to get to the wheat.

B

 

[Hugh McBryde]

I spent some time getting to know a couple who I grew very close to in a short amount of time. They were both quickly becoming my best friends. Although we weren't physically together, we shared our day-to-day lives together. I felt a real sisterhood with her and felt real love and respect for him as a future husband."

First and foremost, we are all, still, despite our views on marriage, sinful people. Knowing we are sinners, and that every Christian we encounter is a sinner, is an important perspective. We over promise, we under deliver, and that is putting it politely.

Another thing I have noticed regarding our conduct with regard to polygyny is that we approach it with the same tools we would approach monogamy. We go through a courtship phase, we decide among ourselves, often the parties to the courtship reach different conclusions such as in your case. It seemed you were ready for this relationship, they weren't. Honestly how is this different from the disappointment of any jilted party in a romance designed to lead to a monogamy?

There's a lot more to Biblical honesty than simply plural marriage. We must recognize that the vast majority of marriages described in scripture were arranged. That kinda kills romance. We continue to go about this like it was a self arranging situation, only with more wives than usual. The honest and proper perspective of a wife in a Biblical Marriage should be "Oh, we're getting a new wife? That's nice. Where is she going to stay?," but instead we have this consultative approach where she's involved and influences the choice. The proper perspective of the potential new wife should be "I'm marrying? Thanks Dad, I've always wanted to, who is my husband?" and the Husband should never engage in speculative romances, making commitments instead (which are the true foundations of love) and never leading anyone on and always following through. Men make commitments and stick to them. Commitment comes before love. Love is a command that can be followed for God never gives us a command we cannot follow. Men are commanded to "love their wives" so it follows that commitment is a first step, not a second one.

I find myself falling into the speculative trap all the time. I want to "check someone out" as a first reaction. I'm finding over and over again that women don't want that. They want someone definite, not wishy washy, and speculative male female relationships are wishy washy.

For their part women want that commitment, and they fall down on the job often, by wanting it first (proper of course) but then wanting to decide if it's "for them." That is a betrayal from the man's point of view. It's a vicious circle. Men don't commit and women bewail this properly claiming that non committing men aren't really men. True. Men commit and women say no thanks (after essentially asking for the commitment), and that's betrayal.

And the Bible promotes adults/parents arranging for marriage. Odd.

 

[Isabella]

Thing is Hugh that is not the culture most Americans are brought up in, probably the FLDS can come home and announce a new wife but most men doing that will find himself living Monogamously or even as a singleton again pretty quickly.

Turning the clock back is unrealistic but perhaps it does illustrate how much more difficult it is to have a polygamous relationship, to find and keep one, with all of these issues and expectations.

B

 

[Hugh McBryde]

I resist the notion that we should not be moving back toward the model that God gave us. I don't know how to get there, but I do know in which direction we should go to get there. Using phrases such as you do like "turn back the clock" are culturally weighted so as to give us the idea we are "going backward." In our culture where we delude ourselves into thinking that movement is progress we elect men to office like Obama who've simply sold us the one word slogan "change."

The vision of Daniel is that things get worse over time, not better. God is not a God of more gadgets, but of compliance with his will. Frankly, marriage is often not marriage unless it has parental consent and God defines marriage, not us, so maybe we had better go backward to find out where we should be.

You seem to use the name of the FLDS in the same way that you use "turn back the clock." To imply backwardness.

The other thing that "turning back the clock" speaks to is impossibility. Yes, you can go to your clock on the wall and set it back or turn it back, but we all know time marches on and that is the other purpose of the phrase. To say "go backward against time" which is both impossible and in the context I believe you present the phrase, "foolish and backward."

The most a Christian can hope to do is restore. Things were perfect in the Garden of Eden, so much so that even Joni Mitchell penned the words "We've got to get ourselves, back to the Garden," as a way of saying perfection is in our rear view mirror, not over our dashboard.

So we restore. As much as we can. We do it in small steps. I merely point out how far away we are from the ideal, which is not in fact ideal at all, since it is a "best point" after the fall, which makes everything less than ideal. That which we passed long ago though, is better, and we can restore some of it, maybe even most of it. Nehemiah 9:

Nevertheless, they were disobedient and rebelled against you and cast your law behind their back and killed your prophets, who had warned them in order to turn them back to you, and they committed great blasphemies. Therefore you gave them into the hand of their enemies, who made them suffer. And in the time of their suffering they cried out to you and you heard them from heaven, and according to your great mercies you gave them saviors who saved them from the hand of their enemies. But after they had rest they did evil again before you, and you abandoned them to the hand of their enemies, so that they had dominion over them. Yet when they turned and cried to you, you heard from heaven, and many times you delivered them according to your mercies. And you warned them in order to turn them back to your law. Yet they acted presumptuously and did not obey your commandments, but sinned against your rules, which if a person does them, he shall live by them, and they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck and would not obey. Many years you bore with them and warned them by your Spirit through your prophets. Yet they would not give ear. Therefore you gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands. Nevertheless, in your great mercies you did not make an end of them or forsake them, for you are a gracious and merciful God.

Now, therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love, let not all the hardship seem little to you that has come upon us, upon our kings, our princes, our priests, our prophets, our fathers, and all your people, since the time of the kings of Assyria until this day. Yet you have been righteous in all that has come upon us, for you have dealt faithfully and we have acted wickedly. Our kings, our princes, our priests, and our fathers have not kept your law or paid attention to your commandments and your warnings that you gave them. Even in their own kingdom, and amid your great goodness that you gave them, and in the large and rich land that you set before them, they did not serve you or turn from their wicked works. Behold, we are slaves this day; in the land that you gave to our fathers to enjoy its fruit and its good gifts, behold, we are slaves. And its rich yield goes to the kings whom you have set over us because of our sins. They rule over our bodies and over our livestock as they please, and we are in great distress. Because of all this we make a firm covenant in writing; on the sealed document are the names of our princes, our Levites, and our priests."

Nehemiah is saying it's not as good as it was, but it can be better, and it is better already despite the hardships that he essentially labels as self imposed. This is restoration, at it's beginning. It's what we need to do and the province of marriage is what we all focus on in this forum. I would note we aren't "going forward" but backward in that arena.

 

[Isabella]

. Using phrases such as you do like "turn back the clock" are culturally weighted so as to give us the idea we are "going backward."

Perhaps it is, however, I was using it as a practical term, with no specific intent behind it as it does not affect me, or my people.

You seem to use the name of the FLDS in the same way that you use "turn back the clock." To imply backwardness.

Please do not make assumptions regarding my intent. I specifically used the FLDS because they are a closed society that practises Polygamy, it is because they are closed that makes them of interest in this case not because their values are old fashioned but just simply because they are less exposed to the cultural norms of the outside world.

"foolish and backward."

Your words, not mine.

So we restore. As much as we can. We do it in small steps. I merely point out how far away we are from the ideal,

And I don't question that, you personally wish to do that, along with some other people here, however, you are not the majority in the culture nor even within Christianity and obviously not the views that were expressed by the people met by Andria, therefore it IS unrealistic to expect those standards on everyone within the movement.

Bels

 

[CecilW]

Thank you, Hugh and Bels. Very thought provoking with truth, I think, on both sides.

Apologies, Andria. It seems we're skidding sideways. Happens sometimes. The object of these ponderings isn't you. You were ready for both love and commitment. But rather the couple who, it seems, fell down on the job.

As women become more wary of "giving their hearts away" because men have failed to commit, I wonder if men become less willing to commit because of the betrayals to which you refer? And if that refusal to commit any longer, and therefore no need to love, may be the underlying issue brings about the crisis of Isaiah 4:1? A vicious spiral, so to speak.

But then, that makes it sound like a "blame the woman" argument, and that sure isn't right either. Even if it IS true that there's a causitive relationship. But then, which is the chicken, and which the egg? Lack of love from the man breeds disrespect and therefore refusal to truly commit from the woman? Or lack of respect from the woman breeds diminished love from the man?

Respect seems like a commitment issue. Commitment seems to say, "I will respect this relationship, and you, regardless of the ups and downs of my feelings. There is something greater here than my wants or feelings at the moment, and my respect for that 'something greater' is strong enough to carry me through." Would that be a pretty fair description of commitment? Seems like it. And it seems like one that would apply/work for both men and women in a relationship.

Jesus said that in the last days, "because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold." Matt 24:12. Lawlessness is a facet of lack of respect for authority, or lack of respect for a 'something higher/greater'. Is it possible that Jesus was stating a causitive order that is at the core of human nature and transcends culture?

I hear ya, Bels, that our culture wouldn't readily accept unseen-ahead-of-time arranged marriages. But I wonder if it might be possible or advantageous if we moved somewhat closer via the idea of making commitments and then letting love grow?

And since we men must lead the way, how to go about it in the face of the popular expectation that commitment will follow warm fuzzy feelings?

Lots more questions than answers, I'm afraid.

 

[Hugh McBryde]

My comment began as an attempt to point out that we're not allowed to simply plug current cultural values into polygyny, and then keep going. It won't work. Part of our problem is the western cultural romance, with romance. God demands of us that we as husband love our wives (which involves commitment) and wives obey their husbands (which doesn't involve making your heart the main course). We then proceed to build relationships on dating, courtship and romantic love. I am saddened but not surprised to see a polygynous courtship blow up in much the same way a monogamous courtship would.

It was intended not as a slap to anyone, but as a help. At Andria's age I was making all those mistakes because I had zero guidance on a Biblical approach. I fell into all those same pits. If I don't watch myself every step of the way, I repeat the process. I don't think the solutions are in front of us except that we may encounter them as a function of moving inevitably forward through time, by looking back.

 

[Anonymous]

I have read all the posts and choose to make a comment. What better
subject. I feel like a widow in that my husband of 20 years decided he could not be hot for God and God hated lukewarm so he turned cold,, go figure.
This was monogamous. So I am left with wondering what happened?
That was 6 years ago. I am 56 and don't have a Dad to help me find a husband(Hugh).
Since then I have digested everything that I can dealing with bf and being a christian woman coming from a fundamental Baptist background, I feel the Lord is leading me down the pm path and not as a 1st, but an addition to a family, and not really a 2nd sw either. I have said in my intro. I do not have to be validated to feel whole. There is women in biblical history that did not marry. but that is not me. So in the conclusion of this matter I want to ask, who helps me know God's will? My Pastor? not happening!!
I still go and tithe, but I am the woman that should not seek or want another marriage because I am divorced. Reconciliation,, not happening. He is still
self destructing. so I am ending this lamentation and praying God will let me be a wife again. dd

 

[CecilW]

So in the conclusion of this matter I want to ask, who helps me know God's will? My Pastor? not happening!!

Hi DD.

At a guess, you're past the giddiness of extreme youth -- "OMG! He's so cu-u-u-ute!" -- and are fully able to make a decision on your own.

God says He puts the solitary into families, Ps 68:6. At a guess, He has a good one planned for you. Also, feel free to write to BF requesting an introduction. I'm sure they'll be glad to suggest someone appropriate, and steer you away from idiots.

 

[Andria]

I hear ya, Bels, that our culture wouldn't readily accept unseen-ahead-of-time arranged marriages. But I wonder if it might be possible or advantageous if we moved somewhat closer via the idea of making commitments and then letting love grow?

It's certainly an intriguing notion. Scary, (because we're human and "what if it doesn't work?") but intriguing. I have a really low confidence these days in the understanding people have of their own sense of commitment. It would take an impressive man for me to buy it anymore. And THEN add to that his wife's (for someone in my shoes). Oy. It's rare to find someone you can actually take at their word. And then you have those (like this couple) who I whole-heartedly believe had the best of intentions, but just had to find out the hard way that their own sense of commitment wasn't what they thought it was. You're coming up against a formidable opponent either way you look at it. I look at myself and wonder if I'd be strong enough to set aside my humanity which is constantly worrying and thinking "Am I good enough?" or "Will he ever love me?" What if I was never sure enough to lay those questions to rest? I'm a strong person and I don't allow much of anything to defeat me, but it's still scary. I guess that's what makes it all that much more intriguing.

 

[DiscussingTheTopic]

Sorry this happened.

There is a way around this look for an unmarried man who believes in polygyny. Then you will not be turned down by his wife. After you marry him you can look for a single woman with him.

Which would essential drastically cut down on her opportunity to live Polygamously since there are more couple than singles.She is in a better position for her own needs right now, but she got a frog the first time, lets be honest here, people expect to run into a few frogs in Monogamy, you have to look at Polygamy in the same way, it is just a simple fact that many people love the idea of Poly(any flavour) but when it comes to the realities of living it they back off, this can cause a lot of hurt in its wake, sometimes it takes a couple a few times and a few broken women behind them before they realise that they are the problem, not the women they choose.

The common wisdom is being prepared to shake through the chaff to get to the wheat.

B

You have a good point if a woman eliminates looking for single or married man either could reduce her chances.

Fortunately almost every man here is available. So there are plenty more chances if she perseveres.

 

[Anonymous]

Andria wrote,

It would take an impressive man for me to buy it anymore.

Andria, that is exactly what you should strive for and not settle for less. The problem with your last experience was that the man was not the leader of his home. I have been reading of several such cases in the last few months. The first wife's opinion is important, BUT she doesn't have the authority or right to make the decision. Keep your sights and expectations high.

 

[cnystrom]

Andria wrote,

It would take an impressive man for me to buy it anymore.

Andria, that is exactly what you should strive for and not settle for less. The problem with your last experience was that the man was not the leader of his home. I have been reading of several such cases in the last few months. The first wife's opinion is important, BUT she doesn't have the authority or right to make the decision. Keep your sights and expectations high.

Amen Mr Whitten!

 

[blugrniz4u]

I am somewhat taken aback by the comment that the first wife does not have the authority or right to make the decision regarding adding another woman into the family.

Gen 16:3 The Sarai, Abram's wife, took Hagar her maid, the Egyptian, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his WIFE, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan.

Abram and Sarai had been together their entire life and it was Sarai, when she was 75 years old, who decided Abram should have a second wife.

After Hagar is sent away, Abraham has concubines but does not take another wife until Sarah dies.

I was asked to "marry" my first husband by his wife...we were good friends and she wanted me to experience the joy and happiness she had with hubs. Years later, we two wives invited another woman to become our husband's wife...it was the best years of my life until our husband passed.

Don't get me wrong, our husband ruled the house and family, but my opinion is that life is better if the women are involved first.