• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Is there anything Greater than God?

truthfinder1967

truthfinder1967

New Member
I am posting here what I posted on another group I think most here are familiar with, Christian Polygamy 2. There is some debate there over God's power and knowledge, and I felt I should share here what I posted there. To maybe get another perspective on my posts. Thanks for your time, here is what I posted there;

Good Evening Brothers and Sisters,

I have been reading some of the posts recently and have a few thoughts to consider for the questions and suggestions at hand. I think the first place to start is to ask yourselves is this simple question, is there anything greater than god? The answer is no. To find the proof, one must ask what is God? God is omnipotent and omniscient. What do these terms mean? Omnipotent means all powerful, omniscient means all knowing. If God is all powerful and all knowing then it stands to reason that there is nothing greater than God. If God is bound by time, then there is a limit to what God can do and that time is greater than God, but we see here;

2 Peter 3:7-9 KJV

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Looking at verse 8 if this is the case then time has no meaning for the Lord, if this is the case then God is not bound by time and therefore is not limited to it. When God created the universe he created all things in the universe, which includes time and space, energy, gravity, motion, and ALL things within the universe.

To prove this consider this;

Colossians 1:16-17 (King James Version)

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

And this;

Revelation 1:8 (King James Version)

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

These scriptures denote the power and might of our lord, and as for his knowledge, consider this,

Ecclesiastes 1:8-10 KJV

8 All things are full of labour; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.

9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

I would put forth concerning verse 9 to be the direct proof of Gods knowledge, for if three thousand years ago there were no combustion engines, then when they were invented by man in the late nineteenth century, then this would be something new under the sun. Something that God could not see or know. This is not the case however, even though cars were not around then, and with verse nine statements, then God must have known or had knowledge of cars. This is just small potatoes to make the point that if God knows everything and is omniscient then nothing man can conceive of or invent is beyond God’s knowledge. Also consider this verse;

1 John 3:19-21 KJV

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

God is greater than our hearts, and he knoweth all things. Once again proving God’s omniscience. All knowing and all powerfull, anything less takes away from God’s glory and puts God in a box. Putting limitations on someone that has no limitations. Some thoughts for the appetitie. God Bless
 
I think that God knows all things. We may feel uncomfortable with that truth, but it is absolutely true. It is a blessing in this sense: God still loves us - even though he knows are every thought!
 
truthfinder1967,

From a very simple man who Love Yahweh..... a simple answer to your subject title " Is there anything Greater than God?"--------NOPE !!!!!!
 
God said his word is greater then the name of God.
Pss.138
[2] I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
sixth_heretic said:
God said his word is greater then the name of God.
Pss.138
[2] I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. John 1:1

God and his Word are one and the same.
 
[/quote]
In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. John 1:1

God and his Word are one and the same.[/quote]


Ok, now we're splitting hairs....

However, even though God and His Word are one and the same, it does not take away from the fact that He said His Word was exalted above HIs name.
Just as there is an order of hiearchy in the Trinity (as in the Son in obedience to the Father) They are both God, but one, in some ways, is greater than the other.
 
Just as there is an order of hiearchy in the Trinity (as in the Son in obedience to the Father) They are both God, but one, in some ways, is greater than the other.[/quote]

I must humbly disagree. The members of the Trinity must have equal power and authority, else it would not be a Triune Godhead. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost each have different realms of authority, although sometimes those realms overlap; however, their power and authority are equal.

"I and my Father are one." John 10:30

The Son's obedience to the Father was, in my limited understanding, a necessity conditional to his life on earth.

However, the Word is replete with scriptures showing the absolute oneness of the Godhead, from Creation to Revelation. While there is a definite order in the Trinity, I don't believe it could be said that there is a hierarchy.
 
and while we are at it, lets determine how many angels can dance on the head of a pin :)
 
sola scriptura said:
The members of the Trinity must have equal power and authority, else it would not be a Triune Godhead.
Click to expand...

According to what? What Scripture have you used to come to this conclusion?

And, no one is disputing that Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." But how does that prove that one is not above the other?

I think my Bible may be missing some pages. ;)

If you believe in Sola Scriptura, then Psalm 138:2 must be correct! As is John 14:28. JESUS said, "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
What does that mean... "the Father is GREATER than I?"

Admitting this does not say that Christ is in some way "inferior" to the Father, but that there is a functional order of hierarchy within the Trinity.

Or how about 1 Corinthians 11:3, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

Sola Scriptura means based on the Scriptures alone! The idea that hierarchy does not exist, is one of tradition and opinion, not of Scripture. It was first suggested by Augustine. (Although I must admit, he only did it to combat a growing heresy in his time. A small sect was spreading the unbiblical idea that the Son was created by the Father, instead of begotten by the Father. However, creating a false doctrine to combat another false doctrine never works out.)

AND STEVE: everybody knows that no more than 12 angels may dance on the head of a pin :lol:
 
I don't think your Bible is missing pages, but you might not have noticed some of them. :D

Let's go back to my first post; John 1:1. "...the Word (Jesus) was God."

If God and Jesus are one and the same, then one cannot be seen as higher than the other. Same means same, you know...equal.

Phil 2:6 says, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" There that word is again!

Since Jesus is the Word (see above verse), then according to your interpretation, Psalm 138 would actually make Jesus higher than the name of God. This opens up another can of worms! I believe you may be reading more into this verse than necessary.

As I stated before, I believe that the passage in John refers to his present earthly status, where he would be lesser (since he was human) than the Father.

As for I Corinthians 11: When looking a the root word for God (theos), we find ourselves going in a circle, since theos can mean the triune God, of which Christ is an equal member.

Far greater minds than mine have studied, debated and thrashed out the seemingly contradictory status of the Trinity, but ultimately, the Word of God does not contradict itself, therefore it is our weak human mind that cannot properly understand the complexity of the Trinity.

I'll leave you with a great quote from Calvin on the Trnity.

For how can the human mind which has not yet been able to ascertain of what the body of the sun consists, though it is daily presented to the eye, bring down the boundless essence of God to its little measure? Nay, how can it, under its own guidance, penetrate to a knowledge of the substance of God while unable to understand its own? Wherefore, let us willingly leave to God the knowledge of himself.
Click to expand...

Katie
 
JasonTedder said:
AND STEVE: everybody knows that no more than 12 angels may dance on the head of a pin :lol:
Click to expand...
well, every day i learn something new.
and some days i learn 2 things!! ;)
 
sola scriptura said:
I don't think your Bible is missing pages, but you might not have noticed some of them. :D

Let's go back to my first post; John 1:1. "...the Word (Jesus) was God."

If God and Jesus are one and the same, then one cannot be seen as higher than the other. Same means same, you know...equal.

Phil 2:6 says, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" There that word is again!

Katie
Click to expand...


You are stating that the Bible is contradicting itself just for the sake of not giving up on an argument.

You have answered none of the questions I posed to you. You just posted verses showing Christ's Divinity is equal with the Father. As I already stated, hierarchy DOES NOT mean Christ is inferior to the Father.

Jesus said, "for my Father is greater than I." Is He a liar?
Paul said, "the head of Christ is God." Was he mistaken?

You said, "If God and Jesus are one and the same, then one cannot be seen as higher than the other." According to what Scripture?

Your quote from Calvin is flawed in itself. "For how can the human mind which has not yet been able to ascertain of what the body of the sun consists..." I believe we can now answer that question very thoroughly! As the Reformation moved forward the central doctrines founded by the men of the Reformation were greatly expanded. These men only scratched the surface of doctrines long buried by the errors of popery. Even still Calvin is here speaking of man's inability to speculate on knowledge of God NOT expounded in Scripture! He surely did not mean that we are to disregard what God has revealed about Himself through His Word. (And on a fun side note: Calvin was the biggest fan Augustine ever had!)

The doctrine of the Trinity is not "seemingly contradictory" at all. The Bible says what it means, and means what it says. If JESUS CHRIST says that the Father is GREATER, then the Father is greater, period.

I have provided Scripture that shows a functional hierarchy in the Trininty. Can you provide ONE verse that states that, "all members of the Trinity must be equal else it would not be a Triune Godhead?"

If you cannot, then you must either;
(1) Concede the argument, or
(2) Admit your position is based on opinion and not Scripture.

There is no shame in learning something new. There is no shame in losing a debate. Don't let pride rob you of a blessing. I grew up an Independent Baptist. When I seriously began to study Theology, many, many times I had to come to terms with the fact that what I had learned was not always right. It's part of growing as a Christian. Tomorrow, you may teach me something.
Calvin, Luther, Zwingli (and others) paved the way for all the religious freedoms we enjoy today, just by discovering the doctrine of Salvation through Grace alone! But age (and sometimes untimely death) prevented these men from learning many things we know as Truths today. Luther still prayed to Mary... Calvin put people to death who didn't agree with infant baptism! You have to understand that these men were raised in a period were Biblical knowledge was forbidden. They simply did not have the time after their conversion to expound their doctrines as far as others have expounded them now. We owe a great debt to the work that God did through these men, but we are in no ways constrained to their beliefs.

This is a non-essential doctrine anyway, and makes no difference towards the Salvation of one's soul. I do not think that you MUST believe the same that I do. But learn to debate with Scripture and never opinion. That is what has created such a large array of "denominations" today.

I hope you're not angry with me. If the topic is getting you upset, I would rather we didn't discuss it at all.

Your brother in Christ,
Jason :)
 
Jason and Katie,

Sorry I have not taken a closer look at this post.

Katie you have stated:

While there is a definite order in the Trinity, I don't believe it could be said that there is a hierarchy.
Click to expand...

And Jason you are arguing for the classical idea of hierarchy, although I hope you are not affirming the ancient heresy of subordinationism where it is said that Jesus and the Spirit are lesser forms or lower levels in authority and importance in the Godhead. I doubt you would believe that knowing your background so I'll give you the benefit of love in believing that is not what you are saying.

The answer is like the Trinity itself. Recall back in the first three hundreds of church history? A few in one group argued that God was one. Then some in another group argued that God was three.

The answer was that both had right points but they had not yet put the two ideas together in a systematic whole.

God is One and all three members are equal with each other in authority. No one member is lesser than another member. No one member has more authority over another without the consent and agreement that the other will function in that role. Recall that Christ said no one could take his life and that he had the authority to call the angels to come take him down had he desired that. Though he was consenting and volunteering to the Father's plan he did not have to do so. He did indeed do so because there was an inner Trinitarian agreement made in eternity past and thus he took on that functional role in order to redeem humanity. But he was not less than God, or less important, or less in value to either the Father or the Spirit.

In theological schools we call this the "Redemptive Covenant Among the Godhead." It says that the Father, Son, and Spirit agreed with one another to each take up a role and function in order to redeem the creation in sin. They in eternity past decided (if that term can be used???) what roles each would fulfill so both the justice and grace of God, both forms of love that flows from God's holy nature, could be upheld by God.

In that plan the Father chose a people, election, the Son agreed to taking upon himself human flesh, being that people's substitute and taking unto him the Father's wrath in their place, and the Spirit agreed to come and apply that work of the Son and plan of the Father by taking up residence in this people.

Which of course, this is why the doctrine of Trinity is so crucial to salvation. Without each member taking up each role as God there can be no salvation. If the Son and Father are not distinct then God the Father could not fulfill the demands of justice in punishing sin and turning his back on the human represenative Jesus. But if Christ was not God then he could not be the sinless and perfect being needed. The inner Trinitarian agreement is, as the faithful Dr. John MacArthur Jr. says, one of the most basic yet mind stretching truths of the entire Bible. One of the most brilliant men with one of the highest IQ's in the history of American thought, Jonathan Edwards, also thought this Trinitarian doctrine was the key to rightly understanding all of life. Many others join in those ranks agreeing with such a view.

What it all means in simplistic terms is that we do indeed have a relational or functional order, which differs than the doctrine of subordinationism, and in that relational order the Father leads the Son and the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son to accomplish the mission of both. The Son gave up positional equality (function) in order to fulfill an agreement that all three of them made in eternity past to redeem mankind.

The argument here seems to be around the way we define "equal." Thus the proper question in a syllogism format would be this: "Can The Father, Son, and Spirit be equal and yet still with different roles and functions or assignments?"

The answer to that is a resounding yes. Though I'll not repeat the most masterful presentation made by Dr. Bruce Ware on this, his book on the Trinity and the Roles, Functions, and Relationships within the Godhead is a most splendid study of which he faithfully handled this very issue with a theological surgeon's hand.

The summary form of it germane to this discussion is this. The Son and Spirit can function underneath the Father while still being one with the Father and equal to the Father in value, importance, and authority.

It is this doctrine which makes the Triune Godhead the very focus and central doctrine to the family. A man and woman are equal in importance and value and neither is any more important to God than the other. But there is also a functional role of the two. The man leads and the lady extends that leadership as she submits to the man's leadership. It is a functional order or a relational order not a order of value or importance. Neither can claim to be more important than the other. Both are equally important and yet there is a functional relational order.

So, yes all members of the Trinity are one and equal to one another. None of them are any higher, more important, or any more valuable than another. Yet there is an order within the way they function with each other. There is a hierarchy but it is so only because there is an agreement among the three members for it to be this way for the purpose of redemption.

Dr. Allen
 
Jason, I think that perhaps I should have begun by asking for your definition of hierarchy. In your response, you have expanded the term to "functional hierarchy", which seems much more relevant.

Dr. Allen, thank you for your explanation, and for the question you posed which I have put below in bold.

"Can The Father, Son, and Spirit be equal and yet still with different roles and functions or assignments?"

This is the crux of the issue for me. I agree with your explanation, but I'm afraid I was interpreting Jason's remarks to be those of "subordinationism".

Having just been in an email discussion with my sweet sister (who loves the Lord dearly, yet thinks polygyny is an abomination), in which she used the Trinity as a type and picture of a momogamous family, I would have to say that I'm a bit paranoid when reading scriptures about Jesus' earthy submission meaning He was somehow less than God.

Jason, if I misinterpreted your original meaning of hierarchy, I apologize. However, I'm certainly not saying the Bible was contradicting itself. I see clearly the symmetry of the three-in-one God with equal power and authority as well as a Son who, of His own volition, obeys the Father. I just assumed you didn't see this, that's why I said "apparent contradiction".

I was raised Independent Baptist, as well. When my eldest son was 14, he began to challenge me with the doctrines of grace. I was willing to look at them and change my lifelong beliefs, based on the scriptures presented to me. I'm very greatful to learn "something new". That's part of why I participate in the forum. Not to let everyone know how much I know (which isn't much!), but to strengthen myself in the Word of God.

I have no desire to "win" an argment. My life is far too hectic and I have too little time to worry about "winning" for pride's sake. Christ must be my all in all, and that leaves no room for pride!

Katie

On an inconsequential side note: I think it's humorous that you think, even with the advanced technology of today, we have an accurate understanding of the sun. 300 years from now, we'll probably compare our present knowledge of the sun with blood-letting!
 
Having just been in an email discussion with my sweet sister (who loves the Lord dearly, yet thinks polygyny is an abomination), in which she used the Trinity as a type and picture of a momogamous family,
Click to expand...

Actually, the Trinity is the most solid base from which to build a wholesome theology on the doctrine of the family which includes polygyny.

See this artic le:

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=2098

What some want to argue is that one man cannot or should not be one with more than one other. Supposedly the one flesh idea or concept means that only two can be one. But the Trinity clearly is the ultimate and most clear theological base that three members can all be distinct and yet still one.If God himself can be one in three why then cannot a family of one man and two or more ladies also strive towards that type of oneness?
 
Dr.Allen,

No, I in no way support any form of the heretical doctrine of Subordinationism. Whether it be the views proposed by Eusebius of Caesarea and Eusebius of Nicomedia, or the short lived Arianism proposed by Arius and his followers (although I admit I was unaware that any held these views after it was banned at the Council of Nicea).

As I previously stated, I do not hold that the Son is inferior to the Father, and as Katie pointed out, I spoke of the hierarchy as a "funcitional" hierarchy. I hold the view expressed by the Ante-Nicene Fathers of "relational subordination." I believe it is supported by Scripture and I have provided some verses to that effect.

However, I am unsure what Scriptures you used to discover an "agreement made in the past" between the members of the Trinity. If you have the time I would appreciate you posting these.

Katie,

No apology needed. Throughout our history (and frequently during the Reformation) massive theological battles took place between learned men solely because they defined words differently, (ie. Calvin and others mistaking "free will" as always meaning "free agency," et.al.)

I very much enjoy debating Scripture, but only for the purposes of learning and growing. On the other hand, I absolutely hate opinion. There are enough books written by Theologians (falsely so called) to make your head spin. It seems that the more "learned" these men get, the more they turn away from Scripture (the source of all knowledge), and rely instead on opinions and theories (much like pre-reformation roman catholic priests).

I always loved the story of Martin Luther debating his Professor at Wittenburg on the location of the Apostles remains. Luther was once expelled from class for pointing out that their Theologians had succesfully located 16 graves, when there were only 12 Apostles!

I have enjoyed talking with you and hope that we can learn from each other in the future. May the Lord bless you and your family,

Jason
 
[quote="Dr. K.R. Allen
Actually, the Trinity is the most solid base from which to build a wholesome theology on the doctrine of the family which includes polygyny.
quote]

Well, I would agree that this is a good point. However, when someone doesn't want to see ANYTHING supporting polygyny as a viable form of marriage, then it doesn't really matter!

Also, how would you incorporate the concept of my husband having two separate and distinct marriages (one to me and one to his other wife) with the concept of the Trinity, without making it sound like we're all married to each other?
 
All praises to YaHuWaH, the Most High of Israel!

This is a nice topic! I think that everyone is stating the same thing! However, I think that we should try to elevate our thoughts by thinking of God's kingdom as a WHOLE-ARCHY, not a Hierarchy! It takes more than one to make up a whole - spirit, body and soul! The trinity is not able to exist without 3 (Father-Son-Spirit), just as we are not able to exist without our head, eyes or ears. No part of the Body is greater than the other, because we all make up One, just as our God!
 
Sola Scriptura,

You asked:

Also, how would you incorporate the concept of my husband having two separate and distinct marriages (one to me and one to his other wife) with the concept of the Trinity, without making it sound like we're all married to each other?
Click to expand...

My response would be that I do not think it is totally distinct and separate. If we look at 1 Cor. 12 as our guide to understand the body, which is also like the idea of God who is one yet three, I would be of the theological, philosophical, and pragmatic persuasion that you all are to be one in harmony, purpose, and in covenant with one another just as members in a church body are to be one, in harmony, and in covenant with one another.

Think of the ladies in light of the body of Christ. In one local body there are multiple members. The text in 1 Cor. 12 clearly teaches us that if one member hurts the other members hurt along with that member. Why is that so? Because in the eye of God each member in one body, i.e. family, is connected, joined with or to, the other members of the body.

Paul even chided the Corinthians for acting like they were distinct and separate with no due regard for others in the body. His point was therefore that each member was joined not only to Christ but also to each other.

This symmetry then runs parallel with the idea of one man who has multiple members to his body, i.e. family. The members are joined to the head but the members are also joined to each other in that body by the union to the head. It is like a triangle. The two lower points are connected upward to the head and sideways to each other by covenant or by the principle of love for neighbor.

This is the point Paul was making to his disciples in Corinth and thus it would be the way we should think of our relationships today. This type of thinking would help to curb people in the union becoming self-centered, thinking of only themselves. And that was one of the major issues in the body of Corinth. The individual members were living like they were independent and Paul wanted them to see themselves as joined, connected, and united not just to Christ but to each other.

It might also help to keep in mind that the term marry, or married, is simply a term to describe the idea of a joining. It does not always mean sexual union. All of the members in Corinth were joined to each other and to the Lord but not sexually to one another. To marry or to join or to unite is the ideology that we get from the Word.

Thus, anytime a man takes to himself more than one lady he adds a member to his body. The members join to him and to one another in heart, in purpose, in mission, in spirit, in relational functions as each serves one another under the one head.

There is no such thing, as far as I can see, an idea of sole individualism either in the Trinity or in the body of Christ. And thus a family should never see themselves as disjointed with totally separate lives, especially when the members of the family are united under one head such as with the man in a relational union.

And thinking back to the Trinity there is no sexual aspect within the Trinity but those members certainly are joined or united to each other. Thus, in the same way each member in the family ought to see themselves united to one another so they can function together in harmony with the same goals and purposes just as all of the members in the Trinity function in that way with one another.

I'm in full support of Dr. Bruce Ware's position that the Trinity is the essential basis for us to build healthy relational models today in all areas of family life and in the spiritual family life. In the Trinity we find the distinctive members who all function in harmony as one. This is to be our standard and goal.

Hope this helps.
 
Jason,

However, I am unsure what Scriptures you used to discover an "agreement made in the past" between the members of the Trinity. If you have the time I would appreciate you posting these.
Click to expand...

In systematic theology we correlate, or at least try to, biblical textual data in workable units that harmonize with each other.

For example, the "Triunity of God" is a term to say that we affirm three distinct members who are all three God yet all three one with each other.

The "Covenant of Redemption" is our way of saying that there is an agreement, plan, or order within the Godhead for the salvation of a people. We find this throughout the Bible where the members of the Triune God work collectively together to accomplish this plan.

For example, we have a direct statement in Hebrews 13:20 about the Eternal Covenant. The Bible says: "Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant."

Scholars on both sides of the only two systems of theology, continuity and discontinuity systems, (Covenant Calvinism and Dispensationalism) agree that this is a reference to a covenant made in eternity by God the Father and the God the Son.

Dr. Charles C. Ryrie and Dr. Robert L. Reymond, both representing two very different theological traditions both agree that this is one reference to the eternal agreement by the Godhead to save a people.

We can also see this in the book of Revelation where the Bible says: "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8).

Because of the eternal covenant made in eternity past by the Father and Son, the redemptive agreement or covenant, the Son was slain from the foundation of the world. Before time ever began Christ was already functioning as a Savior who was slain in the perfect omniscience of God's mind. This is why we see grace showing up immediately after Adam sinned. There was grace available because of this decree, plan, covenant that existed in the mind of God before Adam and Eve were ever even created. The full or direct covenant of redemptive covenant of grace did not begin until the New Covenant was implemented by Christ's death and resurrection, but the seeds of it in the OT were so because it was already established in the mind of God in eternity.

Just like the word of God was settled in the heavens in eternity past and then revealed in time and history so too grace was settled in God's mind in eternity past by the agreement among the Godhead and then which was settled in their mind became a historical reality in time and space.

We can see other statements like this throughout Scripture. The Son says that all the Father has given to him will come to him (John 6:37). We see that before the foundation of the word that God chose a people in Christ (Eph. 1:3-5). These, among other similar types of statements, give to us a biblical basis where we know that there was a plan between members of the Godhead to save a people for the Father's own glory.

Dr. Robert P. Lightner has noted there are biblical covenants (covenants made in history and time) and then what is or can be also be called theological covenants (those made outside of time and history in eternity).

Dr. John F. Walvoord, writing in Major Bible Themes, says of this covenant: "In this covenant, the Son of God undertook to provide the redemption for the salvation of those who believe and God promised to accept his sacrifice."

Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer, founder of Dallas Seminary, stated that Titus 1:2 and Hebrews 13:20 were also references to this covenant. He said: "the persons of the Godhead entered before all time and in which each assumed that part in the great plan of redemption which in their present portion as disclosed in the Word of God. In this covenant the Father gives the Son, the Son offers himself without spot to the Father as an efficacious sacrifice, and the Spirit administers and empowers unto execution of this covenant in all its parts. This covenant rests upon but slight revelation. It is rather sustained largely by the fact that it seems both reasonable and inevitable."

The Reformed scholar Dr. William G. T. Shedd adds: "The covenant of redemption is made between the Father and the Son. The contracting parties here are first and second persons of the Trinity; the first of whom promises a kingdom, a glory, and a reward, upon condition that the second performs a work of atonement and redemption." He uses numerous texts, some of which I would not, to support his basis for this: Isa. 42:1-6; Luke 22:29; Isa. 53:10-12; Ps. 89:34-36 among others.

Others who have come to similar conclusions have been Turretin, Witsius, and Hodge along with the authors of the Westminster Confession of Faith.

I know you seem concerned about "theologians," so maybe ought to refer to them simply as Bible teachers (Eph. 4:11), but these teachers of the word in my research have rightly shown that there was an agreement made within the Godhead before time and this agreement had to do with the great plan of redemption. Thus, since we have a biblical term of a covenant called an eternal covenant, and since only God alone is eternal, and since we have other references about the Father giving to the Son a people, a son slain before time began, all of that in totality and systematically arranged leads me to believe that there is indeed a covenant or plan or agreement of Redemption by the Godhead before time began and thus I am comfortable with such terminology if we use it properly without denying the in time and space biblical covenants that unfold progressively.

Dr. Allen
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top