• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Is the term Old Covenant ever mentioned in Scripture?

Simplified, my point is specifically Torah reasons to be cut off, focused and compared with the final Passover week.
Such as not getting to partake in Passover? Regardless of the timeline debate if he observed Passover or not and there for would be cut off, God already addressed that with the second Passover Numbers 9, So he wouldn't have been cut off for not observing Passover.

9 Then Adonai spoke to Moses saying, 10 “Say to Bnei-Yisrael saying: If any man, whether you or your descendants, becomes unclean because of a dead body, or is away on a long journey, he may yet observe Adonai’s Passover. 11 They are to celebrate it at twilight on the fourteenth day of the second month. With matzot and bitter herbs they are to eat it. 12 They are not to leave any of it until morning, or break any bones. When they celebrate Passover they are to observe all its regulations.

Not observing Passover didn't cut Him off if that's the Passover conundrum. I believe When He returns from His long Journey and is standing at the new temple things will be clearer. I see it foreshadowed in 2 Chronicles.

2 Chronicles 29 Hezekiah Restores the Temple, 2 Chronicles 30 Hezekiah and all Israel Celebrate Pesach, 2 Chronicles 31 Restoring the Kohanim ,
2 Chronicles 32 Assyrian’s Failed Seige of Jerusalem

Compare the Themes of 2 Chronicles to the themes of Revelations.

To me nothing is in scripture that some way, some how doesn't point to Yeshua.
 
Whoa Nelly! I think you were fishing for me there weren't ya Zec?
Did you just say "Code of Hammurabi" and "Talmud" and "non-believing source" in one breath?
The Code of Hammurabi was invented by Pagans, the Talmud is a recorded discussion about scripture, how to apply scripture to various legal situations, and how this meshes with accepted/rejected positions; written by believers in the G-d of Israel and many of the discussions are from the time of Yeshua or before. With the 400 years of silence it's kind of hard to fault the Rabbis for having some conversations.

*** next part I'm just responding to your current position; maybe you'll like what I have to say, maybe others in the same boat will appreciate it, take it or leave it as you see fit ***
Now questioning Torah observance; that's being intellectually honest so who could fault you for that?
One thing that may be helpful for you, and others in your situation is to separate out the parts of Torah which predate Torah, i.e. the Sabbath day. The Sabbath day is blessed before there is any Torah and Adam rishon observed it even writing a psalm about it.
As such, the status of the Sabbath day may be unaffected by any of the Torah / non-Torah talk (as is the Malkhitsedeq priesthood as mentioned earlier in the thread).
Some may include also pure / impure animals in the "pre-Torah" items as they were known. Maybe try those things on for size and see if you have shalom in your heart about it. After observing all the pre-Torah stuff with the right attitude (i.e. loving G-d and having an attitude of gratitude to know about these things even), then maybe it's time to revisit what needs doing today and what doesn't?
In my experience, most folks have a few dishes they love that are Kosher and it's really not a big deal to avoid pork; at least living in the 1st world where everything is available in Turkey substitute forms or whatever.

Certainly there are aspects of the Torah which don't need doing any more, or at least can't be done any more.
(I'd submit that killing our own Paschal lamb is one of the things that's either been handled for us already, or it can't be done properly any more ;) For those who love the Torah, it's actually fairly effortless and goes on autopilot after you've been doing it a while; granted it helps to have a support system or to borrow one instead of always trying to reinvent the wheel as many Hebrew roots folks do.
Perhaps the question is wrong. Maybe the question isn't "to do or not to do Torah" but "to make it excruciatingly difficult or not?" Yeshua said "my yoke is easy" yet to me it often seems many Hebrew roots folks way of observing is very painful and not at all enjoyable. Maybe being grafted in to Israel means doing Torah Israel's way?
Maybe not who knows. I'm just rolling.

At the end of the day, if you just do the things which predate Torah and you're wrestling with the text, and you've got the Messiah, well you've got an answer you can give on the judgement day. I might start with "Hashem, why was it so confusing! Why was Paul so difficult to understand if you wanted me to do all that stuff? Why are there verses which seem contradictory?" Not accusingly just wrestle-lingly.

Even if Full blown Torah observation is required by you; why not follow the way Israel does this for baalei-teshuva (those who are coming back to Torah)? Start with Shabbat, and gradually add stuff slowly over time; otherwise folks get overwhelmed by the restrictions on their life and it doesn't feel anything like a blessing. When it's done slowly, incrementally, it's not so noticeable even.
OK sorry I wrote so much, better end this before it's a full page.
In short don't be so hard on yourself brothers!
The Talmud may not be pagan but it was written by people who rejected Christ and so had missed the whole point of the Law. It's simply not a source I can incorporate wholly in to my walk. It contains some useful and ancient information but I can't give it any more weight than any other man made book.
My questions about Torah right now are complicated. I actually love doing it I am just being challenged about whether we should do certain parts. I have a hypothesis that I need to prove that could resolve the whole conundrum (for me) but it may take me a few weeks to get around to it.
 
IMO its pretty clear that he observed the Passover meal. I cant imagine him not observing that particular feast as scheduled
Please elaborate on what it was because I'm obviously over looking something right now.
 
Justification through faith, apart from works of the Law, predates Sinai by 430 years. Reading Galations 3, it seems pretty clear why the Law was given. Therefore it seems safe to conclude that the Law written on our hearts is the Law of love. “Love one another”

I assume the passage you speak of is
''Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.''
Galatians 3:24‭-‬25 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/gal.3.24-25.KJV

The general interpretation is that once we know Messiah, we no longer need Torah. I think there is a better way to consider the passage.

When you were in high school, you had math classes. When you broke a math rule, your answer was wrong and you got a bad grade. You had to study and prove you could do it to pass. Eventually, you graduated. No more grading... but, the rules of math didn't cease to exist, they should now be written on your 'heart' as the proper way to solve certain types of problems, you just don't have your diploma taken away if you mess one up.

As to this 'law of love'... Yeshua, when asked what the great commandment is answered, 'love the Lord tour God with all your heart soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself.' Both, Torah commands that encompass the whole of Torah that is love. God says, 'this is how you love me and how you love your neighbor.'. There is no other mythical 'law of love.'

Blessings.
 
I assume the passage you speak of is
''Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.''
Galatians 3:24‭-‬25 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/gal.3.24-25.KJV

The general interpretation is that once we know Messiah, we no longer need Torah. I think there is a better way to consider the passage.

When you were in high school, you had math classes. When you broke a math rule, your answer was wrong and you got a bad grade. You had to study and prove you could do it to pass. Eventually, you graduated. No more grading... but, the rules of math didn't cease to exist, they should now be written on your 'heart' as the proper way to solve certain types of problems, you just don't have your diploma taken away if you mess one up.

As to this 'law of love'... Yeshua, when asked what the great commandment is answered, 'love the Lord tour God with all your heart soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself.' Both, Torah commands that encompass the whole of Torah that is love. God says, 'this is how you love me and how you love your neighbor.'. There is no other mythical 'law of love.'

Blessings.

But why say 'Torah', why not just say the Word of God?

Another good analogy, by the way, to show how God's Law is written on our hearts.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Without question, the 'new' (renewed: neos) covenant will write Torah on our hearts. Jer. 31:31-34; Eze. 36:22-28; Heb. 8:8-12 & Deu. 30:1-6. And, the verses here clearly demonstrate that the writing on heart does not happen until after He regathers His people. Whether you see this figuratively or literally does not matter. Neither has happened.

Further, as previously pointed out, the sign of the fulfillment is that no more will man teach his brother to know the Lord.... the sign hasn't happened. Therefore, and this is a tough one to swallow, we are not yet in the renewed covenant. We see shades and shadows, but we are not there yet.

Now, for those who struggle with the value or application of Torah, I encourage you to keep wrestling with that. As you do, take time to really, really ponder what Scripture says regarding the Torah. Psalms 1, 19 and 119 come to mind. 19:7-14 is an effervescent extolling of the Torah. Every one of us has memorized the last verse but forget the context.

Lastly, Paul, in 1 Cor. 11 said, 'imitate me as I imitate Christ.' Okay, so you follow Paul. Great. Paul imitated Christ. Christ was righteous. What did He do?

/soapbox

#backtothepopcorn

Blessings.
 
Last edited:
But why say 'Torah', why not just say the Word of God?

Another good analogy, by the way, to show how God's Law is written on our hearts.
Because the context of the passage is Torah. Saying 'Word of God' effectively hides the crux of the issue and is precisely how to water down religion and remove the foundation of all Scripture. There's a reason you never hear the word 'Torah' from the pulpit unless painted in a negative light.

Love ya man.
 
Because the context of the passage is Torah. Saying 'Word of God' effectively hides the crux of the issue and is precisely how to water down religion and remove the foundation of all Scripture. There's a reason you never hear the word 'Torah' from the pulpit unless painted in a negative light.

Love ya man.

Love ya back, but is Torah different than the 'Word of God'? To me it's all the same.
 
Love ya back, but is Torah different than the 'Word of God'? To me it's all the same.
Torah refers to the five books of Moses and is the Word if God. It is foundational to everything else and the plumb from which every other truth is pulled.

Word of God starts with Torah but is expanded and explained through prophets, writings and apostles. Gospels reveal the Living Word, Yeshua, who perfectly walked out the Torah in humble obedience, then was bruised for our transgressions.
 
Torah refers to the five books of Moses and is the Word if God. It is foundational to everything else and the plumb from which every other truth is pulled.

Word of God starts with Torah but is expanded and explained through prophets, writings and apostles. Gospels reveal the Living Word, Yeshua, who perfectly walked out the Torah in humble obedience, then was bruised for our transgressions.

So then the Son of God only walked out the first five books of the whole word of God?

It's seems to me He explained many things in the new covenant, particularly the works of the Holy Spirit which were not fully understood in five books Moses wrote.
 
IMO its pretty clear that he observed the Passover meal. I cant imagine him not observing that particular feast as scheduled

This is very clearly your opinion and there are definitely reasonable possibilities that exist saying otherwise. It actually has never been my opinion even when I was “independent baptist” I never viewed the last supper as a Passover meal. I believe he was dead (by about 3 hours) when the Passover meal was going on...
 
This is very clearly your opinion and there are definitely reasonable possibilities that exist saying otherwise. It actually has never been my opinion even when I was “independent baptist” I never viewed the last supper as a Passover meal. I believe he was dead (by about 3 hours) when the Passover meal was going on...

The Son of God is the Passover lamb, therefore He would have been the Passover meal.
 
I assume the passage you speak of is
''Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.''
Galatians 3:24‭-‬25 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/gal.3.24-25.KJV

The general interpretation is that once we know Messiah, we no longer need Torah. I think there is a better way to consider the passage.

When you were in high school, you had math classes. When you broke a math rule, your answer was wrong and you got a bad grade. You had to study and prove you could do it to pass. Eventually, you graduated. No more grading... but, the rules of math didn't cease to exist, they should now be written on your 'heart' as the proper way to solve certain types of problems, you just don't have your diploma taken away if you mess one up.

As to this 'law of love'... Yeshua, when asked what the great commandment is answered, 'love the Lord tour God with all your heart soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself.' Both, Torah commands that encompass the whole of Torah that is love. God says, 'this is how you love me and how you love your neighbor.'. There is no other mythical 'law of love.'

Blessings.
I was actually referring to the whole chapter in context, but I don’t think we really disagree on this point. I might word it a little differently, but the product would essentially be the same, or maybe it’s the sum. Either or, haha
 
So then the Son of God only walked out the first five books of the whole word of God?

It's seems to me He explained many things in the new covenant, particularly the works of the Holy Spirit which were not fully understood in five books Moses wrote.
I would highly recommend a deep study of 'the Angel of the Lord' followed by a study of the 'Memra de Yeya' in the Targumim.

Blessings.
 
Disagree, the new covenant began at the death and resurrection of Christ.
Hebrews 9:15-18
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is,there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

If the old covenant was only being renewed, there was no need for the death of Christ.

Christ died for multiple reasons, but one of the primary reasons was to be a dead testator.

The idea that the new covenant has to wait for another return of Christ entirely negates his work as a testator before his death and turns a blind eye to his own testament that he died to put in force.

Hebrews 10:14-17 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Apparently both scripture and the Holy Ghost is a witness that Jeremiah’s New Covenant is in effect at the penning of the book of Hebrews
 
And yet God's Laws are not written on my heart. I still need to read them. I do look to the teachings of others. If the New Covenant is fully in force then it's stated results are not living up to the claims.
 
And yet God's Laws are not written on my heart. I still need to read them. I do look to the teachings of others. If the New Covenant is fully in force then it's stated results are not living up to the claims.
I agree, something just doesn’t seem to fit.
Do people not change when the law is written on the heart? I see the same struggle with the old nature that has always existed.
If you say that we wouldn’t see evidence that the law is written on the heart, then what’s the point of it being written on the heart?

I believe that we, exactly like the religious leaders in Yeshua’s day, don’t see the full picture yet. We pull out our favorite proof texts, just like they did, but we have an incomplete understanding, just like they did.
 
Last edited:
upload_2019-5-3_14-14-55.jpeg
Munching
 
Back
Top