Is the term Old Covenant ever mentioned in Scripture?

[Nikud]

By the way, my question of salvation was neither because I am unsaved or passive aggressive as you say, but to prove a point. I am saved and I follow the Law based on the Spiritual understanding that has been given to me, which I believe is the "written upon their hearts" means.

It's the way you were wording things that's how it came across. There's been a cloud of tension lately and I'm just concerned about the Law vs no Law storm errupting. Not protecting Him he's his own man and can defend his beleifs himself. I always have to take statements about salvation whether ones own or questioning someone else indirectly seriously even if I feel its just rhetoric to make a point. Plus I like the fact that you understand when I use esoteric meanings of words that sometimes others only have a more modern understanding and take offense.

 

[Nikud]

don't have any wounds as you say, I actually think any of these discussion with all the adjective uses when a idea is not liked becomes childish

We use it like, rubbed your the wrong way, irritated you.

I do find it really strange that the words passive aggressive start being thrown around when it comes to conversions of this nature with certain individuals (passive aggressive enough for you ) (Why does everyone have to protect this guy. I just don't get it.) I don't have any wounds as you say, I actually think any of these discussion with all the adjective uses when a idea is not liked becomes childish. But I have noticed, Torah people stick with Torah people and I guess that is to be expected. To me, and this is my opinion, and out of love (the same as you casing your post in love), dealing with Torah people is like dealing with what it seems Pharisees would have been (remember this is my opinion, nothing more). A religious thought that looked more at the rules than the Spirit of God.

I'm a God guy, I have my Messianic congregation and my Charasmatic congregation, I send my kids to awanas (Baptist cubscouts basically) to build relationships and memorize scripture at the same time.

Interesting thing you brought up are you aware that many denomination doctrines that cause division amongst beleivers come from Rabinical mainly Pharasitcal traditions wrapped up in Yehuas name.

I have no idea why the thought keeps coming up that I said, Paul was a false prophet, Grace is done away with Law, miracles are a freeforall hippy fest, or certain parts of the bible should be removed.

Thats the impression you gave with statements like these

Thank you for your bravery in trying to question the common religious narrative. I don't think it will go far, but I saw an angel the other day that said he was the Son of God who said I could be wrong. I told my friend Luke about it and he believed me so it must be real.

amongst others and as an after thought (when others have a knee jerk reaction, myself included) you post

Paul is not a false prophet from what I see. But I also think there is more to the story.

at the bottom of a post and its overlooked.

 

[Pacman]

This is important. Why can't it be answered? Where in Jeremiah 31, the definition of the New Covenant, does it state what man is to do in this contract?

I see your point. I would say that Torah being written on our heart indicates that Torah is the standard we are supposed to keep. But you’re right it doesn’t specifically say what our behaviors are supposed to be in that particular passage. That’s likely because those behaviors are already spelled out in Torah... and then again in the New Testament.

Also the condition for us entering this covenant is spelled out elsewhere in scripture. It’s faith in the finished work of our messiah. That doesn’t change the fact that our obedience to God is the evidence that we are in covenant...

 

[Cap]

Cap said: ↑
don't have any wounds as you say, I actually think any of these discussion with all the adjective uses when a idea is not liked becomes childish

Kevin said:
We use it like, rubbed your the wrong way, irritated you.

Cap said: ↑
I do find it really strange that the words passive aggressive start being thrown around when it comes to conversions of this nature with certain individuals (passive aggressive enough for you ) (Why does everyone have to protect this guy. I just don't get it.) I don't have any wounds as you say, I actually think any of these discussion with all the adjective uses when a idea is not liked becomes childish. But I have noticed, Torah people stick with Torah people and I guess that is to be expected. To me, and this is my opinion, and out of love (the same as you casing your post in love), dealing with Torah people is like dealing with what it seems Pharisees would have been (remember this is my opinion, nothing more). A religious thought that looked more at the rules than the Spirit of God.

Kevin said:
I'm a God guy, I have my Messianic congregation and my Charasmatic congregation, I send my kids to awanas (Baptist cubscouts basically) to build relationships and memorize scripture at the same time. Interesting thing you brought up are you aware that many denomination doctrines that cause division amongst beleivers come from Rabinical mainly Pharasitcal traditions wrapped up in Yehuas name. (This is why you and I can come to an understanding between your view and mine because you come from a varied background, so do I. I can relate to that)

Cap said: ↑
I have no idea why the thought keeps coming up that I said, Paul was a false prophet, Grace is done away with Law, miracles are a freeforall hippy fest, or certain parts of the bible should be removed.

Kevin Said:
Thats the impression you gave with statements like these

Cap said: ↑
Thank you for your bravery in trying to question the common religious narrative. I don't think it will go far, but I saw an angel the other day that said he was the Son of God who said I could be wrong. I told my friend Luke about it and he believed me so it must be real.

Kevin Said;
amongst others and as an after thought (when others have a knee jerk reaction, myself included) you post

Cap said: ↑
Paul is not a false prophet from what I see. But I also think there is more to the story.

Kevin said:
at the bottom of a post and its overlooked.


Why is my conversation picked a part but when others are rude, malicious, condescending, over bearing, downright bullying, they are given a pass. I am who I am and I communicate the way I do. Like you, and others, I try to come across in a positive way but, this is the internet and this is the way it goes. If anyone has met me in person and has a complaint please speak, either to me here or in private. There are others that speak here the same manner as I do about a subject that is important to them and no one gets hurt, why am I wrong?

Maybe, just maybe, there is some truth to what I am saying. Maybe it's something to think about. And by the way, I am all for being proven wrong, I am interested in the truth more than what I think it is.

 

[Cap]

I see your point. I would say that Torah being written on our heart indicates that Torah is the standard we are supposed to keep. But you’re right it doesn’t specifically say what our behaviors are supposed to be in that particular passage. That’s likely because those behaviors are already spelled out in Torah... and then again in the New Testament.

Also the condition for us entering this covenant is spelled out elsewhere in scripture. It’s faith in the finished work of our messiah. That doesn’t change the fact that our obedience to God is the evidence that we are in covenant...

Jeremiah 31:33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

Your interpretation appears to me to be saying that when God puts His "law in our minds and writes them on our hearts" to mean that we will all follow the 613 laws established in the Word of God at some point as written in the Word of God. But later He finishes with 'Knowing the Lord". It doesn't say they will all follow My rules, however it does say that they will all "know Him". What does that mean, "know Him"? I believe that the 'knowing Him" is being like Him. I gave the analogy of the tools. Here is another. We all know the law about crossing the street. As children, we have to be constantly reminded of that law. However, as adults we know the law, but we don't have to think about it, we just do it because we understand it's purpose. The writing of the Law on our hearts is , to me saying that we will come to understand the purpose of the Law and honor it from the higher purpose it was meant to be observed. Case in point, Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And, the Son of God made it a point to override the current ruling religious establishment to show them that their view of the Law was incorrectly being honored and was becoming a stumbling block.

Some may need to heed the Law as they understand it physically, but some may see the Law in a spiritual sense and operate based on that understanding. Which one is wrong? Neither, it may all depend on how much the Law has been written on ones heart at any given point in there journey to become closer to God.

 

[Pacman]

I believe that the 'knowing Him" is being like Him.

I agree. 1 Peter 1:16

Have you looked into that context yet?

 

[Cap]

I agree. 1 Peter 1:16

Have you looked into that context yet?

1 Peter 1:16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

Are you more holy than I because you honor a day you believe to be the sabbath, which could be wrong in the first place?

 

[Pacman]

1 Peter 1:16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

Are you more holy than I because you honor a day you believe to be the sabbath, which could be wrong in the first place?

Where is that written? What’s the context? Peter is referencing something. What is it? What is he telling those believers?

 

[The Revolting Man]

Jeremiah 31:33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

Your interpretation appears to me to be saying that when God puts His "law in our minds and writes them on our hearts" to mean that we will all follow the 613 laws established in the Word of God at some point as written in the Word of God. But later He finishes with 'Knowing the Lord". It doesn't say they will all follow My rules, however it does say that they will all "know Him". What does that mean, "know Him"? I believe that the 'knowing Him" is being like Him. I gave the analogy of the tools. Here is another. We all know the law about crossing the street. As children, we have to be constantly reminded of that law. However, as adults we know the law, but we don't have to think about it, we just do it because we understand it's purpose. The writing of the Law on our hearts is , to me saying that we will come to understand the purpose of the Law and honor it from the higher purpose it was meant to be observed. Case in point, Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And, the Son of God made it a point to override the current ruling religious establishment to show them that their view of the Law was incorrectly being honored and was becoming a stumbling block.

Some may need to heed the Law as they understand it physically, but some may see the Law in a spiritual sense and operate based on that understanding. Which one is wrong? Neither, it may all depend on how much the Law has been written on ones heart at any given point in there journey to become closer to God.

Are you sure that Jeremiah 33 has been fulfilled ? I haven't done the research yet but it seems like this could be talking about Heaven.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Jeremiah 31:33“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”

Your interpretation appears to me to be saying that when God puts His "law in our minds and writes them on our hearts" to mean that we will all follow the 613 laws established in the Word of God at some point as written in the Word of God. But later He finishes with 'Knowing the Lord". It doesn't say they will all follow My rules, however it does say that they will all "know Him". What does that mean, "know Him"? I believe that the 'knowing Him" is being like Him. I gave the analogy of the tools. Here is another. We all know the law about crossing the street. As children, we have to be constantly reminded of that law. However, as adults we know the law, but we don't have to think about it, we just do it because we understand it's purpose. The writing of the Law on our hearts is , to me saying that we will come to understand the purpose of the Law and honor it from the higher purpose it was meant to be observed. Case in point, Mark 2:27 Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And, the Son of God made it a point to override the current ruling religious establishment to show them that their view of the Law was incorrectly being honored and was becoming a stumbling block.

Some may need to heed the Law as they understand it physically, but some may see the Law in a spiritual sense and operate based on that understanding. Which one is wrong? Neither, it may all depend on how much the Law has been written on ones heart at any given point in there journey to become closer to God.

And even if it's not a future prophecy, what about a Law being written on your heart would mean it's nonspecific or that you wouldn't have to still follow it? At the end of it all it's still a Law and Laws must be obeyed. You're role in the Jeremiah 33 whatever it is is to obey.

 

[The Revolting Man]

1 Peter 1:16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

Are you more holy than I because you honor a day you believe to be the sabbath, which could be wrong in the first place?

And you are painting with a very broad brush. There are many Torah people, like myself, that believe Acts 15 clearly lays out a non-Torah observant (except for the sexual Laws) lifestyle for those who choose it. You don't have to follow Torah. Don't if you don't want to. It's been life changing for me and I would heartily recommend it but I can't require it because God didn't.

 

[The Revolting Man]

1 Peter 1:16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

Are you more holy than I because you honor a day you believe to be the sabbath, which could be wrong in the first place?

You are very quick to take offense Cap. You frequently see insult where none was intended. You should get more information before jumping to conclusions so much.

 

[FollowingHim2]

That's what this Torah stuff does to me. It has become religion to me. It is a judgement by some to others. The whole idea of Torah, Hebrew Roots, Messianic Jew is nothing but division to me. Torah people saying Grace people are wrong and Grace people are saying Torah people are wrong, division I tell you.

You know, I've never judged anyone else for not following Torah exactly as I do. But I have been judged by others for doing so. And usually I find it's their own insecurities that cause them to jump at me, for most 'reasons' they seem to come up with that I'm doing something wrong.
So, division. Yes, there is division. People choose division. It's totally possible to worship YHWH in separate ways and still be able to do it together. It's possible to put aside our differences and to come together to work for YHWH however He wants us to. The fact that people won't do that doesn't make this wrong. It means that people have their own issues.
Lets take what you said a bit further. Change Torah stuff to Polygamy.

That's what this polygamy does to me. It has become religion to me. It is a judgement by some to others. The whole idea of polygamy, biblical marriage, patriarchy, is nothing but division to me. Polygamy people saying Monogamy people are wrong and Monogamy people are saying Polygamy people are wrong, division I tell you.

The problem is not the subject, the problem is the people dealing with it.

 

[Cap]

You know, I've never judged anyone else for not following Torah exactly as I do. But I have been judged by others for doing so. And usually I find it's their own insecurities that cause them to jump at me, for most 'reasons' they seem to come up with that I'm doing something wrong.
So, division. Yes, there is division. People choose division. It's totally possible to worship YHWH in separate ways and still be able to do it together. It's possible to put aside our differences and to come together to work for YHWH however He wants us to. The fact that people won't do that doesn't make this wrong. It means that people have their own issues.
Lets take what you said a bit further. Change Torah stuff to Polygamy.

The problem is not the subject, the problem is the people dealing with it.

Please read all I post. No one is judging anyone about the way they believe accept that it appears when it comes to believing there is more to practicing torah stuff.

 

[FollowingHim2]

Please read all I post. No one is judging anyone about the way they believe accept that it appears when it comes to believing there is more to practicing torah stuff.

I'm not talking about you specifically. I'm talking about what you said, and how it relates to others judging. You said that Torah believers are judging others, so I commented on that. Division in the church is something I am particularly passionate about, it drives me nuts.
I do read all you write, and all the others are writing, but I am skim reading due to time constraints.

 

[Cap]

Are you sure that Jeremiah 33 has been fulfilled ? I haven't done the research yet but it seems like this could be talking about Heaven.

When spoken it was prophecy with the fulfilling of the Son of God and the establishment of the New Covenant. Heaven is a journey to be reached, not a specific place like the Niagara Falls.

And even if it's not a future prophecy, what about a Law being written on your heart would mean it's nonspecific or that you wouldn't have to still follow it? At the end of it all it's still a Law and Laws must be obeyed. You're role in the Jeremiah 33 whatever it is is to obey.

Same quesiton I asked @Pacman, what is stated in Jeremiah 33 that I am suppose to do to fulfill the contract stated there? Please read all of my posts before coming to the conclusion that I hate torah people.

And you are painting with a very broad brush. There are many Torah people, like myself, that believe Acts 15 clearly lays out a non-Torah observant (except for the sexual Laws) lifestyle for those who choose it. You don't have to follow Torah. Don't if you don't want to. It's been life changing for me and I would heartily recommend it but I can't require it because God didn't.

The Noahide laws are a scam, a Jewish manifestation to segregate so called gentiles, non believers to them.

Cap said: ↑
1 Peter 1:16 for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
Are you more holy than I because you honor a day you believe to be the sabbath, which could be wrong in the first place?

No offense taken, at least by me. Just trying to define a point of reference. The assumption here is that to be holy one most follow certain Laws. The problem here is that who defines the Laws?

You are very quick to take offense Cap. You frequently see insult where none was intended. You should get more information before jumping to conclusions so much.

Probably we should all do that.

 

[Cap]

I'm not talking about you specifically. I'm talking about what you said, and how it relates to others judging. You said that Torah believers are judging others, so I commented on that. Division in the church is something I am particularly passionate about, it drives me nuts.
I do read all you write, and all the others are writing, but I am skim reading due to time constraints.

I would suggest skim reading is not giving the full being talked about. But I do understand that as soon as someone brings up questions about certain subjects everyone's hairs on the back of their necks stand up.

 

[Pacman]

Are you sure that Jeremiah 33 has been fulfilled ? I haven't done the research yet but it seems like this could be talking about Heaven.

No it hasn’t. Won’t be until the millennium as I understand it. Vs 34 is evidence of that. We still need to be taught...

 

[Verifyveritas76]

One of the reasons why my path veered from TO some time back, was that I realized what it meant to be cut off from “Israel”. So often, Ive witnessed believers come out of corporate Christianity dogma, and the natural train of thought leads to “What else have they lied about?”

The inevitable landing place is to examine everything, which will lead to a study of Torah. From what I have seen firsthand, this typically means that the one studying gets super excited about all of the observances and trappings of rituals that TO offers as well as the depth of understanding to be found there. Been there, done that. The bad part about this is that they fail to thoroughly study Torah and examine it in light of Yeshua Meshiach and his life, specifically the final Passover week.

There’s a reason why there has been multiple covenants since Creation. There was a reason for the substitute Priesthood and subsequent trappings. There was a reason why Torah has specific lists of dont’s with the results being that the offender would be cut off. And these reasons give clarity to the existence of language in the NT like New Covenant/Testament, Old Covenant/Testament.

And there are Torah justifiable reasons why Christ was cut off from “Israel”. Virtually everyone that I’ve observed shifting from 21st century “Christianity” to a TO position, does so with a Christianity bias. By that I mean that they give Christ a pass for things that Torah demands excommunication for. We know that He is the Messiah and the sinless Son of God and there were good reasons for everything that he did. For one who really knows Torah, it is no surprise that Messiah was cut off. . . . .on a cross. . . .

There is a reason why Christ said if you wanna be his disciple, you must take up your curse and follow Him.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

No it hasn’t. Won’t be until the millennium as I understand it. Vs 34 is evidence of that. We still need to be taught...

But never again will anyone be dependent on a human mediator to teach them. That’s the point of the verse, not that we have perfect knowledge. This is a logical fallacy known as moving the goal post.

During the Millenial Reign, if Christ weren’t reigning on earth, there would be those that would move the goal posts to the other end of the 1000 years, just to see if they could.