Is the term Old Covenant ever mentioned in Scripture?

[Verifyveritas76]

The term "old covenant" does not exist in scripture and the two verses that seem to hint at it has the word covenant inserted into it by the translators for "clarity" Hebrews 8:7 and 13.

I think 2 Corinthians 3:14 would disprove that assertion. Testament is the same word as covenant, diatheke 1242

Also the insertion of the word for clarity is fully supported in the verses preceding each of those instances listed

Such as Heb. 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

And Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant . . . . . Which is the word that Heb 8:13 . . .a new covenant is referring to.

As to it being a “re-newed’’ covenant, if Christ did renew something, it wasn’t the Levitical covenant but the Melchizedek, which predated Creation.

Run a search on the word kainos 2537 used for new in this passage. I’m not finding anything to support the idea of “renewed”. Rather that you cant use old bottles to put new wine in. IF you try that, both are ruined.

 

[yoderfamily]

I've long been waiting for this subject to come up. Ive been hearing this term renewed covenant for 4-5 years. I went along with it but mostly hid it in my heart as I didn't understand it. I have friends who follow that path and we often talked about it. It just never clicked for me.
A few months ago while thinking about the subject it occurred to me that Jesus died and Therefore nullified the old testament covenant.
Scripture clearly says there is a new covenant.
But I also strongly believe the cultural Christians of today have taken the new covenant as a stand alone no old testament is needed.
Jesus is referred to as the cornerstone and in another as a capstone completing the building. So I asked, What is the foundation? And the rest of the building?

Seeing as Jesus is the Word I take that as from the beginning he has been the Word. His Words stand for as long as he says they stay. And only He can change something he has put into effect.
So does the old covenant stand within the new covenant? I would like to hear why some of you believe that it does.
How much of the Torah is actually part of that covenant? Some parts are definitely no longer in effect. Others are sweeter than honey and greatly to desired.
I know where I stand but as I love the Truth I want to hear why and what you guys believe.

 

[Pacman]

I think 2 Corinthians 3:14 would disprove that assertion. Testament is the same word as covenant, diatheke 1242

Good point. But I am mostly referring to it as in the implication that it’s done away with is not supported by scripture. But your right the term old covenant is used in that verse.

Also the insertion of the word for clarity is fully supported in the verses preceding each of those instances listed

It absolutely is not. The context of this is the high priesthood verse 8 spells that out. Otherwise the word “them” makes absolutely no sense. Also look at verse 1...

As to it being a “re-newed’’ covenant, if Christ did renew something, it wasn’t the Levitical covenant but the Melchizedek, which predated Creation.

Yes it’s talking about the priesthood not the covenant.

Run a search on the word kainos 2537 used for new in this passage. I’m not finding anything to support the idea of “renewed”. Rather that you cant use old bottles to put new wine in. IF you try that, both are ruined.

Point taken. Again I’m pointing out the error of separating the “church” in the New Testament from the “church” in the Old Testament and pitting the “old covenant” against the new. They are not at odds with one another. They fit perfectly together.

Also the idea of renew is implied by the covenant itself. It’s a marriage covenant to the bride which was previously divorced. Weather it’s brand new or renewed actually has very little impact on the discussion. It’s made with the same bride as the other covenant was made with. And includes the same Torah.

 

[steve]

Rather that you cant use old bottles to put new wine in. IF you try that, both are ruined.

What I read some decades ago was that it was wineskins. They would get hardened and not have the flexibility to handle the new wine.
BUT, with the application of heated oil (think Holy Spirit) they could be made pliable and thus renewed.

I have no time to research this, if it is bunk I apologize.

 

[yoderfamily]

Also the idea of renew is implied by the covenant itself. It’s a marriage covenant to the bride which was previously divorced. Weather it’s brand new or renewed actually has very little impact on the discussion. It’s made with the same bride as the other covenant was made with. And includes the same Torah.

I respectfully disagree Pac. Definitely not the same Bride. For there is a new Israel. Which is comprised of those . Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.
Faith in Jesus Christ was not required for the first bride. It is required of the current bride

 

[Nikud]

2 Corinthians 3:14-16
14 But their minds were hardened. For up to this very day the same veil remains unlifted at the reading of the ancient covenant, since in Messiah it is passing away. 15 But to this day, whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart. 16 But whenever someone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

So were clear the word palaias translated as old, ancient, or several other ways is an age descriptive word not a separation of time descriptive word. Not a word that can be used to divide His word into to opposing factions. This is not an accusation just a statement.

Hebrews is actually talking about several of the covenants. Thank God the first covenant was rendered obsolete. We are no long under the curse of the law of sin and death brought by the first Adam under the first covenant set free by the fulfillment of prophecy foreshadowed in in the scene when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac in his unused, sometimes forgotten but renewed covenant.

"For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another."

Such as Heb. 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

And Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant . . . . . Which is the word that Heb 8:13 . . .a new covenant is referring to.

As to it being a “re-newed’’ covenant, if Christ did renew something, it wasn’t the Levitical covenant but the Melchizedek, which predated Creation.

Back to the word kainoj which means so much more than new, like renewed, freshness, uncertain affinity, refreshed, unused and back English translations I agree its Abrahams covenant (the renewal of was prophesied by Isaiah if I'm not mistaken), Abraham who obeyed Elohim and kept His commands, His decrees and His laws”, that was renewed. The one that had a Melkziedek High Priest and priesthood, no physical temple, the one where there was neither Jew nor Gentile, were He called a man His friend (had a Relationship with) and basically looks like what people call the new covenant but actually listening to what Yeshua and Paul said.

Abrahams covenant is the Better Covenant. Its the one submitted to from love. Not obeyed to by obligation (fear of consequences). Abraham sumitted to everything God told him to do because he Trusted and Loved God, fear lead him to make a few mistakes like what happen with Pharoh but God was on His side and corrected things. Protected Him. Abrahams mistake at times is that he fear the world. Thats why (besides the grand design that points all things to Yeshua) the lesson of obligation, obedeince by fear of consequences (now dont get me wrong there are still consequences for sin, we just now have an intersesor) had to be taught. So that the covenant of Love, the covenenat of personal relationship with God could be renewed.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

It absolutely is not. The context of this is the high priesthood verse 8 spells that out. Otherwise the word “them” makes absolutely no sense. Also look at verse 1...

Are you saying that the Lord found fault with the priesthood that Torah established? I don’t disagree with that for obvious reasons, just making a finer point of what I think you’re saying.

However, if the issue was only with the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood, the “them” in verse 8 would not have been addressed/corrected/replaced by the new covenant of verse 8. Rather it would have been stated as a new “ministry” or “service” or priesthood. It’s not. The item being replaced with the new is the subject of “them”, both in the preceding verses and in the same verse.

The priesthood mentioned in the beginning is simply a segue into the subject of the rest of the chapter beginning with verses 5 & 6

 

[Pacman]

Also the idea of renew is implied by the covenant itself. It’s a marriage covenant to the bride which was previously divorced. Weather it’s brand new or renewed actually has very little impact on the discussion. It’s made with the same bride as the other covenant was made with. And includes the same Torah.

I respectfully disagree Pac. Definitely not the same Bride. For there is a new Israel. Which is comprised of those . Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.
Faith in Jesus Christ was not required for the first bride. It is required of the current bride

And was also required before. They had faith that he would come. We have faith that he did.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Hebrews is actually talking about several of the covenants. Thank God the first covenant was rendered obsolete. We are no long under the curse of the law of sin and death brought by the first Adam under the first covenant set free by the fulfillment of prophecy foreshadowed in in the scene when Abraham was going to sacrifice Isaac in his unused, sometimes forgotten but renewed covenant.

This would not be the first covenant, but the second.
The curse of the law of sin and death was the result of them breaking the first covenant. The resulting covenant was what Adam lived under.

Both covenants were a Melchizedek type covenant. Even the initial covenant at Sinai was a Melchizedek covenant up until the point that they proved that the assembly couldn’t function as holy people on their own. Thus a substitute priesthood was established for a Melchizedek at Sinai. It, (like the resulting covenant that established it) was a very poor shadow of the heavenly things but at least we can use it to determine the outlines.

A Melchizedek covenant is remarkably simple. Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. . . . And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath said, we will do.

When I was studying out the covenants (plural) of Sinai, I was amazed that there were multiple covenants listed, each one after Israel had screwed up, and each one had differences in them. The covenant that Moses makes with the remnant before he dies has differences and the covenant that Joshua makes has differences. They are not the same covenants and the ones following the substitute priesthood, exclude a Melchizedek priesthood by excommunication or being cut off from Israel. Is it any wonder that Messiah was cut off.

 

[Pacman]

Are you saying that the Lord found fault with the priesthood that Torah established?

He found fault with the priest themselves. Not with the Torah.

 

[Pacman]

The law of sin and death is not done away with. Those who reject messiah are still under it.

God did not do away with any covenant he made. Man in many cases broke our side of the covenants but that doesn’t mean God did. If he did we should all be building arks right now... and how could we trust anything he said?

 

[Verifyveritas76]

The law of sin and death is not done away with. Those who reject messiah are still under it.

God did not do away with any covenant he made. Man in many cases broke our side of the covenants but that doesn’t mean God did. If he did we should all be building arks right now... and how could we trust anything he said?

Tell that to King Saul and his descendants. Just one example.

Exodus 32:8-14 is another prime example

The men of war who weren’t allowed into the Promised Land.

Moses who wasn’t allowed into the Promised Land


He doesnt break his covenant, but, if they did He wasn’t bound to it. He might make another with them, but He wasn’t obligated to the terms of the first unless he included it in the next.

And the next might be similar to the preceding covenant. This does not make it a renewed covenant, rather a new covenant with a common Originator.

 

[Pacman]

Tell that to King Saul and his descendants. Just one example.

Exodus 32:8-14 is another prime example

The men of war who weren’t allowed into the Promised Land.

Moses who wasn’t allowed into the Promised Land


He doesnt break his covenant, but, if they did He wasn’t bound to it. He might make another with them, but He wasn’t obligated to the terms of the first unless he included it in the next.

And the next might be similar to the preceding covenant. This does not make it a renewed covenant, rather a new covenant with a common Originator.

We are saying the same thing. I think... if one side breaks covenant the other is not necessarily still bound to the covenant. However some covenants are not conditional upon mans behavior. Others are... God does not break his covenants.

Perhaps we should look into what covenants are conditional and what ones aren’t... and even deeper than that what portions of covenants are conditional and what portions aren’t...

 

[Pacman]

That doesnt explain why the words used in Hebrews 8:8 are a new covenant. A new covenant that is specifically stated as being not like the old covenant originating in the Exodus.

Heb. 8:8 & 9 Thus saith the Lord, I will make a new covenant . . . . . .Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

A renewed Sinai covenant with the house of Judah and Israel would not make a comparison between the old one and the new one. A new covenant would.

The difference is the Torah will be written on our hears by the Spirit. We aren’t there yet... New covenant same Torah.

 

[Cap]

We are saying the same thing. I think... if one side breaks covenant the other is not necessarily still bound to the covenant. However some covenants are not conditional upon mans behavior. Others are... God does not break his covenants.

Perhaps we should look into what covenants are conditional and what ones aren’t... and even deeper than that what portions of covenants are conditional and what portions aren’t...

The old covenant is based on man's ability to keep it. The new covenant is NOT based on man's ability but God's, all that is required is faith that God can save you.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

The difference is the Torah will be written on our hears by the Spirit. We aren’t there yet... New covenant same Torah.

I’d say that Dath will be written upon our hearts. There is a difference.

So the Spirit doesnt work in our hearts now, and he isn’t the one who will lead us and guide us into all truth?

I’d have to disagree. My failure to perform His Laws in my heart, is exceptionally poor evidence that He’s not writing or willing to write.

I’d say that spiritual insight beyond the written is evidence to the contrary that the Spirit is active in men’s spirits and hearts post resurrection that was unparalleled pre crucifixion.

 

[Pacman]

I’d say that Dath will be written upon our hearts. There is a difference.

So the Spirit doesnt work in our hearts now, and he isn’t the one who will lead us and guide us into all truth?

I’d have to disagree. My failure to perform His Laws in my heart, is exceptionally poor evidence that He’s not writing or willing to write.

I’d say that spiritual insight beyond the written is evidence to the contrary that the Spirit is active in men’s spirits and hearts post resurrection that was unparalleled pre crucifixion.

What are you referring to when you say Dath? Jeremiah says Torah.

The work has begun yes and the Spirit does lead us yes. But it’s not complete yet. Hebrews 8:11 and Jeremiah 31:34 we still have need to be taught... we are in the preparation period. Ephesians 5:26-27

 

[Nikud]

Tell that to King Saul and his descendants. Just one example.

God didn't do away with that covenant Saul did when he broke it. God never promised a renewal of it if he repented. He never repented anyways. He apostatized. There were covenants made that were with only one person for the purpose of setting example for all to follow but sometimes to set example about covenants them self or our relationship with Him.

This would not be the first covenant, but the second.
The curse of the law of sin and death was the result of them breaking the first covenant. The resulting covenant was what Adam lived under.

Both covenants were a Melchizedek type covenant. Even the initial covenant at Sinai was a Melchizedek covenant up until the point that they proved that the assembly couldn’t function as holy people on their own. Thus a substitute priesthood was established for a Melchizedek at Sinai.

The blanket law of sin and death that was part of the first covenant that covered all doesn't cover those who are covered by the Lord in His renewed covenant. After Eden it wasn't til Seth that men began to call upon the name of the Lord. There was a separation between Adam and God and Man and God. Then there was Enoch who still walked with God but they were so precious to the Lord he took him up without ever having to die, so I would say very rare. Gods desire is for Man to walk with Him. We don't see that again until Abraham. God knew what was going to happen, so He used the covenants to tell us the story of what it looks like to walk with Him in covenant. So I would say that The Archetype of the Melkziedek Covenant was The Edenic Covenant, The foreshadow of the Perfect Melkziedek was Abrahams Covenant. It became perfect through Yeshua fulfilling many of promises made in all covenants and will be completed when he returns and fulfills the rest. It is only when all other promises are fulfilled that the promises in Abrahams Covenant are completed. That's why its the renewed covenant.

Short descriptions of the covenants that effect us all in some way. Its mine from a work study I gave.

1. The Edenic Covenant [Melkziedek (innocence)] and the Adamic Covenant (grace, which you will find in all covenants after the fall),
2. Noahic Covenant we known Noah knew which animals were unclean and clean.
3. Abrahamic Covenant (Melkeziedek) We know His laws concerning sin that go against His nature are there. Sin falls into 2 categories against His nature or an act of disobedience. Covenant based on Trust, Love and Submission. Without one the others are not there.
4. Isaacic Covenant It was similar to the covenant with Abraham - Gen 26:2 Then the LORD appeared to him and said: "Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. Gen 26:3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. Gen 26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed for the Purpose of pointing to the Importance of the Abrahamic Covenant. First witness.
5. Jacobic Covenant It is the same covenant God made with his grandfather, Abraham. Jacob [Israel] inherited it from his father, Isaac, who inherited it from his father, Abraham... who received it from God."...unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I swear unto Abraham thy father; and I will make thy seed multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because that Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My Commandments, My statutes, and My laws." (Gen.26:3-5) Second witness.
6. Mosaic Covenant was a conditional covenant that either brought God's direct blessing for obedience or God's direct cursing for disobedience upon His people. It taught the lesson that you can Obey out of obligation but still not submit out of love.
7. The Palestinian Covenant (Land Covenant, amplifies the land aspect that was detailed in the Abrahamic Covenant. According to the terms of this covenant, if the people disobeyed, God would cause them to be scattered around the world Deut.30 , but He would eventually restore the nation (verse 5). When the nation is restored, then they will obey Him perfectly (verse 8), and God will cause them to prosper (verse 9). This has not fully happened yet so those who say He's forsaken the Jews that they're not a bride make God a covenant breaker with that statement.
8. The Davidic Covenant amplifies the “seed” aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant. The promises to David in this passage are significant. God promised that David's lineage would last forever and that his kingdom would never pass away permanently (verse 16). Obviously, the Davidic throne has not been in place at all times. This is fulfilled when the conqueror Yeshua returns and sits upon His throne and Rules as King of King.
9. The Renewed Covenant {Melkziedek (Jeremiah 31:31-34) once against you cant exclude even if you believe your the new Israel without making God a Covenant breaker. The Gatekeeper, the way is always Yeshua though} is a covenant made first with the nation of Israel and, ultimately, with all mankind. In the New Covenant, God promises to forgive sin, and there will be a universal knowledge of the Lord.

 

[Pacman]

The old covenant is based on man's ability to keep it.

Why do you believe that?

The new covenant is NOT based on man's ability but God's, all that is required is faith that God can save you.

Saving faith will be evidenced by good works... James 1:22-25 James 2:14-26 And there are many others

 

[Verifyveritas76]

What are you referring to when you say Dath? Jeremiah says Torah.

The work has begun yes and the Spirit does lead us yes. But it’s not complete yet. Hebrews 8:11 and Jeremiah 31:34 we still have need to be taught... we are in the preparation period. Ephesians 5:26-27

As a wife has need of growth after the ceremony. But there is no one acting as a proxy for her or us after the ceremony. The difference is that we aren’t dependent on a brother or neighbor to mediate for us with Him. We (believers) KNOW him, and he KNOWs us and we continue to strive to know him better.

Does the level of experience to come disprove or negate the experience of the honeymoon? Is there anyone who can legitimately come between a husband and wife to keep them from KNOWING each other?