• Biblical Families is not a dating website. It is a forum to discuss issues relating to marriage and the Bible, and to offer guidance and support, not to find a wife. Click here for more information.

Meat I'm wondering about eschatology

B

Bartato

Seasoned Member
Real Person*
Male
Things are looking rather apocalyptic these days, and that has me wondering about eschatology. I'm trying to find help in understanding these issues (and not looking to pick a fight, or stir the pot). I really don't know what to think.

I've read through both Daniel and Revelation relatively recently. I still don't know what to think. When I read Ezekiel, I really get confused.

I try listening to sermons and/or lectures from all different viewpoints (dispensational premillennialism (pre trib. rapture), historic premillennialism (mid or post trib. rapture), postmillennialism, and amillenialism).

I see some strengths and weaknesses with each of these views, and still don't know what to think. Apparently, I need to ask my Master Jesus Christ, and our Father in Heaven to give me understanding as I study His Word.

I would really love to get raptured up by Jesus before the tribulation. That would be awesome!

On the other hand, I also know that He will be with me through whatever trials we may have to face. Even if I go through the tribulation, I will go through it joyfully praising my Master.

If my postmil brothers are right, then Christ will be with us as we struggle to further His Kingdom in our day, and bring about His rule on earth.

If my amill brothers are right, then I will strive to rejoice in the present "spiritual millennial kingdom", rejoicing in the "already, but not yet" nature of Christ's Kingdom.

I do know for certain that the King will return, He will raise me up from the dead, and I will be with Him forever! I am greatly comforted by these truths.

Any thoughts?

I am particularly curious regarding the views of our "Hebrew roots" "Torah observant" brothers on this issue. (Though I don't regard myself as part of that group)

I follow pastor Joe Fox and Bear Independent on Patreon and YouTube, and get the impression that they think the tribulation draws near, and that the followers of Jesus will probably go through it.
 
I probably know less now than I used to... Never been a fan of a pre-trib rapture. It is just not how God works or is glorified... His people have always walked through the fire and He sometimes chooses to preserve them in the midst of it.... Noah and ark, Daniel in fire, lion's den, Jeremiah in Jerusalem, etc... So, I'd cross pre-trib off the list as wishful thinking.

Since coming to a Hebrew roots perspective, I can say with full assurance, Christian theology is sorely lacking in any eschatology conversation because (generally speaking) they don't know who they are and therefore can't reconcile the plethora of passages in the Tanak (OT) with the NT...

Here's a really good place to start:

Mathew 24:31 Yeshua says, "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds from one end of the sky to the other."

This is a very clear statement that exactly connects with a statement in Deuteronomy 30:4. Yeshua is telling us something of supreme significance that begins to unravel the 'rapture game.'

Deuteronomy 30:1-6

30 “So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you, 2 and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, 3 then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. 4 If your outcasts are at the ends of the sky, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. 5 The Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.

6 “Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Notice, the promise is to 'bring you into the Land your fathers possessed' and THEN He will circumcise our hearts!!

Ezekiel 37 recounts this in two tellings, specifically, the house of Israel and the house of Judah (these are two separate groups... this is KEY to understanding eschatology... and, the very point Paul is making in Romans 9-11, while Christendom ignores/sleeps/argues against, etc...), but picking up in verse 24-28 we are clearly told where Yeshua will be and what He will do during the millennial reign....

Ez. 37:24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”

Long story short, God made promises to Jacob (Israel) a long time ago that He intends to fulfill... Let the journey begin... :D

Shalom
 
Bartato said:
Things are looking rather apocalyptic these days, and that has me wondering about eschatology. I'm trying to find help in understanding these issues (and not looking to pick a fight, or stir the pot). I really don't know what to think.
Click to expand...

Maybe not, but you certainly know a whole lot of great questions to ask, and you've already begun to seek the truth through research and study.

PeteR said:
I probably know less now than I used to... Never been a fan of a pre-trib rapture. It is just not how God works or is glorified... His people have always walked through the fire and He sometimes chooses to preserve them in the midst of it.... Noah and ark, Daniel in fire, lion's den, Jeremiah in Jerusalem, etc... So, I'd cross pre-trib off the list as wishful thinking.

Since coming to a Hebrew roots perspective, I can say with full assurance, Christian theology is sorely lacking in any eschatology conversation because (generally speaking) they don't know who they are and therefore can't reconcile the plethora of passages in the Tanak (OT) with the NT...

Here's a really good place to start:

Mathew 24:31 Yeshua says, "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds from one end of the sky to the other."

This is a very clear statement that exactly connects with a statement in Deuteronomy 30:4. Yeshua is telling us something of supreme significance that begins to unravel the 'rapture game.'

Deuteronomy 30:1-6

30 “So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the Lord your God has banished you, 2 and you return to the Lord your God and obey Him with all your heart and soul according to all that I command you today, you and your sons, 3 then the Lord your God will restore you from captivity, and have compassion on you, and will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you. 4 If your outcasts are at the ends of the sky, from there the Lord your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back. 5 The Lord your God will bring you into the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.

6 “Moreover the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Notice, the promise is to 'bring you into the Land your fathers possessed' and THEN He will circumcise our hearts!!

Ezekiel 37 recounts this in two tellings, specifically, the house of Israel and the house of Judah (these are two separate groups... this is KEY to understanding eschatology... and, the very point Paul is making in Romans 9-11, while Christendom ignores/sleeps/argues against, etc...), but picking up in verse 24-28 we are clearly told where Yeshua will be and what He will do during the millennial reign....

Ez. 37:24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”

Long story short, God made promises to Jacob (Israel) a long time ago that He intends to fulfill... Let the journey begin... :D

Shalom
Click to expand...

@PeteR, you have studied this far beyond what I have. Given that I haven't heard any pure trumpets blowing or seen or heard of Him being large and in charge back on Earth, so I don't tend to think that the end is right around the corner, but at the same time I have to acknowledge that, as fascinated as I am with all the various theories, my own scholarship on the topic is woefully inadequate, so I recognize I'm living in the land of opinion. I think I'm agreeing with you on most of what you've written, though, and I share your skepticism about rapture. That has always struck me as a form of perverse wishful thinking that requires twisting Scripture into pretzels.

I have friends and relatives who very seriously wish and hope that they will be here for the apocalypse, but I have never shared that desire. Lately, I've been having suspicions that we may be on the cusp of the initial beginnings of the early stages (notice all the qualifiers) of the first part of end times. The best thing is to be prepared for navigating an existence that isn't convenient or predictable.

That's why I love that Arni Klein video you shared, Pete. In addition to what we're going through culturally being the equivalent of an inoculation against coming True Tyranny, I can also see how YHWH has prepared me personally through certain experiences to be inoculated against adversity -- and I simply assume those opportunities have been made available to all believers if they'll just have the eyes to see them.
 
To be clear, eschatologically, we have at least 1000 years to go! See Rev. 20... the tribulation that lies at some point in the not too distant future is the doorway into the millennial reign and there will be believers and NON-believers who cross that threshold.... and, even during the 1000 years of His reign, there will be rebellious people and nations.... it's all in the prophets...
 
That is my assumption as well, but I prefer to defer to people with greater expertise than this. In this area, mine is limited to having edited a large collection of eschatalogical end-times articles for Bible Students Notebooki back when I was associate editor. Before that I was really ignorant.

So thank you, @PeteR, for being a voice of authority in that regard.
 
Big subject @Bartato!

I love discussion of these things! We (my husband and I) don't claim to have all the answers, and would be skeptical of any man claiming to have a perfect understanding of prophesy. That said, there are some pieces we have found in our pursuit of truth and understanding that some groups (or religious starting places) don't want to try and fit into the puzzle.

PeteR said:
Since coming to a Hebrew roots perspective, I can say with full assurance, Christian theology is sorely lacking in any eschatology conversation because (generally speaking) they don't know who they are and therefore can't reconcile the plethora of passages in the Tanak (OT) with the NT...
Click to expand...
There were and are some great christian teachers that know and teach that the nations of the "christian west" represent literal Israel. They are often vilified for suggesting that the modern anti-christ Jews are not the real deal. Sheldon Emry was one, Ted Weiland is another. There are websites with the work of these men available for free.

@PeteR has a different ministry and a different perspective then those men I mentioned.
PeteR said:
Long story short, God made promises to Jacob (Israel) a long time ago that He intends to fulfill... Let the journey begin... :D
Click to expand...
We agree with the long story short, but believe we are further along in some areas. We believe the two houses of Israel were brought together under Yeshua/Jesus about two millenia ago. That Yeshua/Jesus has been reigning since He was raised. That the new Jerusalem is already being built globally....that the tribulation and rapture of the wicked has perhaps already started. The parable that discusses the harvest of the world says the tares get taken out first. Then the righteous shine forth in the kingdom of our father.
We in America are obviously suffering the curses of Deut. 28. But that mark I.D.'s us as Israel.
The sheep and goats are being separated here....right n left. The war in heaven has been going on for two thousand years at least. We agree with what Pete says, it is the job of His people to do His work.
We believe we are approaching the time of the birth of the kingdom and fall of the great Ho.

Transition is the time right before birth when labor shifts from passive (just breath over the pain) to the active stage of pushing. It is where most women want to give up....where it feels impossible....where many women get nauseous and vomit. Then there is the part that hurts....but it's pain with a purpose....and after the child is born it was all worth it.

YHWH says 'Labor to give birth o captive daughter of Zion." Good news is it is going to happen. PERIOD!

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of His Christ.
We are living in some of the most interesting and volatile of times. He put it in me to hope I live to see the fall of Mystery Babylon and the Kingdom manifested on earth. *shrugs* @Keith Martin has a favorite 'doctor' with an unusual and rare last name that means ....is it sickle? YHWH uses men with evil intentions to accomplish His purposes. If people put their trust in the untrustworthy....instead of Him.....He is just in allowing their destruction. He will intervene. But the self declared elite have a lot of misery planned for humanity. Their reset attempt....will end with the REAL reset. Dem dudes will be critter turds ....eventually.
I'm rambling now. Happy truth seeking Bartato! :)
 
Joleneakamama said:
*shrugs* @Keith Martin has a favorite 'doctor' with an unusual and rare last name that means ....is it sickle? YHWH uses men with evil intentions to accomplish His purposes. If people put their trust in the untrustworthy....instead of Him.....He is just in allowing their destruction. He will intervene. But the self declared elite have a lot of misery planned for humanity. Their reset attempt....will end with the REAL reset.
Click to expand...
Keith Martin said:
I'm wracking my brain over here trying to figure out who this 'doctor' is . . . Dr. Hook?
Click to expand...
Joleneakamama said:
https://babynames.com/name/fauci
Grim reaper of the apocalypse?
Click to expand...
Gary Slaughenhaupt said:
So it is the Italian equivalent of the name Smith. Smiths make sickles.
Click to expand...
Actually, much more specific than Smith, because Smiths also made wheels and horseshoes and knives and swords and eating utensils, as well as sickles.

But, wow, great call, Jolene! As much as I have followed that man for almost 40 years now I'm a bit embarrassed I never looked that up. I was distracted by my assumption that it was someone of whom I had positive interpretations, and my mind was coming up blank -- thus my yuk yuk about the music guy Dr. Hook (hook, sickle, I know: corny). Even if I'd been thinking about Wuhan Flu my mind would have turned to Dr. Atlas or Dr. McCullough.

Grim Reaper, indeed. It appears Little Tony comes by his death fascination honestly, with DNA to bolster who he has turned out to be. Sickle Maker. Wow.

Actually, eerie.

But I have no trouble thinking of him as being possessed of antichrist. Dr. Anthony Fauci has long been the first person I think of when people mention the concept of a human being potentially having made a direct, conscious deal with the Devil.
 
Keith Martin said:
Grim Reaper, indeed. It appears Little Tony comes by his death fascination honestly, with DNA to bolster who he has turned out to be. Sickle Maker. Wow.

Actually, eerie.

But I have no trouble thinking of him as being possessed of antichrist. Dr. Anthony Fauci has long been the first person I think of when people mention the concept of a human being potentially having made a direct, conscious deal with the Devil.
Click to expand...
Ahh, but mr rational. I'm still waiting for someone who believes in a fallen angel satan opposing our creator's plan and annointed one to come up with just ONE SINGLE THING, we have reason to believe this lucifersatandevil did that YHWH did not promise to do as a curse in Deut. 28.

Where did the lucifersatandevil ever go further then YHWH authorized him to go?
And if the lucifersatandevil only does what YHWH allows and authorizes him to do.....doesn't that make him/it YHWH's servant....not enemy? :eek:o_O:cool:
 
Joleneakamama said:
Ahh, but mr rational. I'm still waiting for someone who believes in a fallen angel satan
Click to expand...

OK, well, I don't qualify in that regard . . .

Joleneakamama said:
Where did the lucifersatandevil ever go further then YHWH authorized him to go?
Click to expand...

. . . because I don't believe the Adversary can operate one inch outside of what YHWH authorizes him to do . . .

Joleneakamama said:
And if the lucifersatandevil only does what YHWH allows and authorizes him to do.....doesn't that make him/it YHWH's servant....not enemy? :eek:o_O:cool:
Click to expand...

. . . and therefore you are inspiring me to eat a large chunk of humble pie (only slightly less untasty than crow), because you've reminded me of something I've been reminded of numerous times lately that, for a number of reasons, I'm finding difficult to assimilate: not only is Satan YHWH's servant and performing the exact functions assigned to Him by our mutual Creator (because the fallen-angel myth's creator, John Milton, even made clear that it was unbiblical -- Paradise Lost hasn't been made part of the canon by any of our denominations, has it?), but, whether or not Dr. Sickle Maker does or doesn't have a direct 'arrangement' with Satan, Fauci also is only operating within both the bounds of what YHWH allows and the assignment Satan is carrying out for YHWH.

I will probably need to have my memory refreshed on this again, though, before it finally sinks in. I've been honing in on the doc ever since even before I first laid direct eyes on him in 1992, so my cognitive dissonance is so intense that the hurdle to overcome is a big one. I'll be honest and say that my ire for Fauci far exceeds my ire for Satan, whom I sympathize with for having the Worst Job Ever. Fauci, on the other hand, doesn't have a direct Divine Assignment as far as we know, and he's willing to mistreat his fellow human beings.

That doesn't, though, mean that he isn't playing a crucial role in implementing our Father's Master Plan.
 
Joleneakamama said:
Ahh, but mr rational. I'm still waiting for someone who believes in a fallen angel satan opposing our creator's plan and annointed one to come up with just ONE SINGLE THING, we have reason to believe this lucifersatandevil did that YHWH did not promise to do as a curse in Deut. 28.

Where did the lucifersatandevil ever go further then YHWH authorized him to go?
And if the lucifersatandevil only does what YHWH allows and authorizes him to do.....doesn't that make him/it YHWH's servant....not enemy? :eek:o_O:cool:
Click to expand...

Maybe this is a bit of my "Calvinist" view coming out, but Satan's evil plans are somehow subordinate to God's Master Plan.

The relationship of God to Satan would seem somewhat similar to the relationship of JRR Tolkien to Sauron. Satan is one of the characters in God's Story.
 
Ah, the higher echelons of world-wide bestselling authors!
 
Keith Martin said:
I'll be honest and say that my ire for Fauci far exceeds my ire for Satan, whom I sympathize with for having the Worst Job Ever. Fauci, on the other hand, doesn't have a direct Divine Assignment as far as we know, and he's willing to mistreat his fellow human beings.

That doesn't, though, mean that he isn't playing a crucial role in implementing our Father's Master Plan.
Click to expand...

I suspect we each have a divine assignments....a unique roll in the lives of those around us that may reach further then we realize.
Bartato said:
Maybe this is a bit of my "Calvinist" view coming out, but Satan's evil plans are somehow subordinate to God's Master Plan.
Click to expand...
I no longer see more then one plan. He has declared the end from the beginning. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He made the creature (i think that be us) subject to vanity, By HIS will, and there has been hope for the faithful since Adam and Eve got the boot outa the garden.

The earth is shaking, (and christians thought it would be literal.) How many "wrong" things will happen before we see ....it was all right all along?

There is a verse in Amos. "Shall there be evil in a city and YHWH hath not done it?

As long as we blame a devil for the evil.....we fail to completely comprehend.
We can do a lot of good, and help a lot of people. Learn to love others etc. But the ancient Isrealites strength came from fearing the ONE true God. Not believing THE ALMIGHTY has an opponent. :cool:

Keith Martin said:
Ah, the higher echelons of world-wide bestselling authors!
Click to expand...
As a teen I read all 1070 pages of the lord of the rings. Got no use for it though. Too similar to how christians seem to act. "Satan is the god of this world" the "dark side" has all this power. Only because they write those books and make those movies. Read the good book instead. ...because. "Books are WEAPONS in the war of ideas" trojan horses into yer BRAIN! *is a conspiracy realist*
;)
 
Its important we know the Word cover to cover too many people are pushing for the electronic downloads of the Bible the best one I have found is the Blue Letter Bible App has many different versions and I have used hard copy to check the computer copys so far haven't found errors but take the newbie who doesnt know any better and we have a problem
 
If everything is His plan, then there is no Kingdom of Heaven.
 
Keith Martin said:
What makes you say that, my brother?
Click to expand...
Because if everything is His plan, it is all the Kingdom of Heaven. Nothing would exist outside of His plan, His Kingdom.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top