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I have a gay friend that insist homosexuality is not a sin because "God or Jesus didn't mention it in the Bible themselves."
- Thread starter LDremoved
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Check Leviticus 18:22:
www.blueletterbible.org
There is also famous passage in Romans.
Leviticus 18 :: King James Version (KJV)
Leviticus 18 - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
www.blueletterbible.org
There is also famous passage in Romans.
So the only parts of the Bible that your friend thinks are worth reading are the Ten Commandments and the words of Jesus printed in red writing in the Gospels?
The whole Bible is there for a reason. All the laws delivered by Moses, which repeatedly condemn homosexuality, came from God. And the words of the New Testament writers came from God also. The Holy Spirit inspired the authors what to write, and they then put it down in their own words.
The whole Bible is there for a reason. All the laws delivered by Moses, which repeatedly condemn homosexuality, came from God. And the words of the New Testament writers came from God also. The Holy Spirit inspired the authors what to write, and they then put it down in their own words.
Your friend is cherrypicking verses he likes, ignoring the ones he doesn't, and finding an excuse that conveniently gives the answer he wants.2 Timothy 3:16 said:
I did try explaining this to him but he refused to acknowledge it. He asked where does God or Jesus specifically speak about homosexuality themselves? Is this part true because I couldn't find anything myself?
Bible doesn't use phrase homosexual. This is more modern word. You must know proper phrase: lie with mankind.
There could be other phrases.
Check commentary for Leviticus 18:22. By the way, this chapter contains most sex laws. Only exception are marriage laws.
Genesis 18:20-21:
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
That is admittedly a weak reference however, because your friend will no doubt be familiar with the fairly reasonable argument that Sodom and Gomorrah's sin was not actually homosexuality, but pride, gluttony and idleness - the behaviour with the angels was not necessarily representative of what they were being condemned for.
Ezekiel 16:49-50:
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Your friend's fundamental error is that he is seeing Christianity as a bunch of specific legalistic rules, rather than a master-servant relationship with God as master over our entire lives.
He finds the shortest possible list of rules, and just follows those, thinking he can then do whatever he likes with the rest of "his" time provided it doesn't contradict the few brief rules he has decided to accept. And it is he who has decided which rules to accept. So he is in control of his religion. Ultimately he is the head, he is the master.
When in reality we are to have Jesus as our King. We are not to just find a short list of rules to follow, but to ask him how we should live in every aspect of life. If that aspect of life isn't mentioned in the specific "red letters" of Jesus, we search the remainder of scripture, and pray for wisdom and inspiration, in order to understand what His commands for us are in that area. So, if the "red letters" don't say something about who we sleep with, we should look elsewhere to find where else he may have caused that instruction to be written down, then follow that. Because Jesus is the master of our entire lives, not just the writer of a rule book.
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
That is admittedly a weak reference however, because your friend will no doubt be familiar with the fairly reasonable argument that Sodom and Gomorrah's sin was not actually homosexuality, but pride, gluttony and idleness - the behaviour with the angels was not necessarily representative of what they were being condemned for.
Ezekiel 16:49-50:
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Your friend's fundamental error is that he is seeing Christianity as a bunch of specific legalistic rules, rather than a master-servant relationship with God as master over our entire lives.
He finds the shortest possible list of rules, and just follows those, thinking he can then do whatever he likes with the rest of "his" time provided it doesn't contradict the few brief rules he has decided to accept. And it is he who has decided which rules to accept. So he is in control of his religion. Ultimately he is the head, he is the master.
When in reality we are to have Jesus as our King. We are not to just find a short list of rules to follow, but to ask him how we should live in every aspect of life. If that aspect of life isn't mentioned in the specific "red letters" of Jesus, we search the remainder of scripture, and pray for wisdom and inspiration, in order to understand what His commands for us are in that area. So, if the "red letters" don't say something about who we sleep with, we should look elsewhere to find where else he may have caused that instruction to be written down, then follow that. Because Jesus is the master of our entire lives, not just the writer of a rule book.
Thank you! I remember pointing this out to him as well but he still maintains that never does God himself mention it's a sin. I wanted to make sure there wasn't something I was missing because i'm still new to studying the Bible.
It was written by God, because "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16). Your friend is rejecting this solely because he wants to reject it, because he wants to continue to sin. He has a hardened heart that wants to do his own will rather than follow God's will.
Yes, that's why I didn't bother with that argument lol
I was curious about the same thing. Does he just pick and chose? I didn't want to hurt his feelings more though. I assume it's difficult enough to go through life being gay, I saw no need in really harping on him about being incorrect. I wanted to make sure for my own sanity that there wasn't something I was missing though because i'm new to studying the Bible. I appreciate it.
Like I told him, who he sleeps with is his business but please don't justify his actions through the Bible and if he is going to do so then at least be correct when doing so. This brings me to another question. What are gay people supposed to do? It's not like you can just wake up one day and become straight. So what exactly are a Christian's solutions to homosexuality?
He picks and chooses because homosexuality is demonic. Your friend is affected by a demon, a spirit of homosexuality. That is why so many gay people look and act so similarly - they are affected by the same spiritual force. You can often see it in their eyes - there's a particular look about gay people.
This demon makes him feel like the demon's characteristics are part of his own nature - he does not feel like he is affected by homosexuality, he feels like he IS homosexual. This is not true, it is an illusion. You CAN just "wake up one day and become straight" - when delivered from the demon. The idea that this is impossible IS the illusion.
Nobody is "born gay". Many people who are homosexual become so as a response to trauma in their lives - often they have been sexually abused and felt they were homosexual only after this occurred. Homosexuality comes to people at some point in their lives, but embeds itself so strongly it convinces them that it has always been part of their nature. It makes them think they were born gay, even though they were not.
As long as he is in his current state, he has to pick and choose from scripture. It's either that or accept it all (and both admit he is a sinner and recognise the demon, which is trying to hide its presence), or reject all scripture and reject God. He truly believes in God and does not want to reject Him - but also truly believes the demon when it tells him he is homosexual. As long as he tries to hold onto both, he has to pick and choose from scripture, there is no other option short of turning wholly to God or turning wholly to Satan.
Yes, feel sorry for him, pity him. But pray for his deliverance from this demon. This is a spiritual battle, not a logical one.
You will not be able to persuade your friend through logic that homosexuality is sinful. He probably already knows that and is just trying not to admit it to himself. The solution is through spiritual warfare.
This demon makes him feel like the demon's characteristics are part of his own nature - he does not feel like he is affected by homosexuality, he feels like he IS homosexual. This is not true, it is an illusion. You CAN just "wake up one day and become straight" - when delivered from the demon. The idea that this is impossible IS the illusion.
Nobody is "born gay". Many people who are homosexual become so as a response to trauma in their lives - often they have been sexually abused and felt they were homosexual only after this occurred. Homosexuality comes to people at some point in their lives, but embeds itself so strongly it convinces them that it has always been part of their nature. It makes them think they were born gay, even though they were not.
As long as he is in his current state, he has to pick and choose from scripture. It's either that or accept it all (and both admit he is a sinner and recognise the demon, which is trying to hide its presence), or reject all scripture and reject God. He truly believes in God and does not want to reject Him - but also truly believes the demon when it tells him he is homosexual. As long as he tries to hold onto both, he has to pick and choose from scripture, there is no other option short of turning wholly to God or turning wholly to Satan.
Yes, feel sorry for him, pity him. But pray for his deliverance from this demon. This is a spiritual battle, not a logical one.
You will not be able to persuade your friend through logic that homosexuality is sinful. He probably already knows that and is just trying not to admit it to himself. The solution is through spiritual warfare.
Keep in mind the severity of this sin, and other life dominating sins. It is written; Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10).
Life dominating sins require complete changes in life. Can this change occur? Yes! Most definitely. Read the next verse; v:11, And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Some of the very people to whom Paul wrote this epistle "were" from those life dominating sinful backgrounds. Don't give up on your friend and don't lose sight of the severity of the situation he is in. Shalom
God annihilated the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah over homosexuality. What makes your friend think that God changed His mind and got woke?
I didn't want to bring this up to him because it's often a disputed subject. Others say it was simply perversion, not necessarily homosexuality, especially considering the term homosexuality isn't in the Bible. If I'm missing something please correct me though.
I know what you're saying but I try not to use examples that are up for dispute or that need to be interpreted too much because people tend to think it's you speaking and not God.
Yes I definitely agree but that's easier for a believer to acknowledge. When you're speaking to a non-believer, it's essentially pointless to try to prove "faith."
Yes I completely agree with you but I've learned that if you just outright tell people all of that information at once you can drive them further away. In his defense, that's a lot for anyone to learn and consider all at once, it's life changing.
That is a deceptive argument used by homosexuals to hide the fact that their sin is actually talked about all through the Bible. The word "homosexual" is a recent English word that only entered the language in 1892, and did not become widely used until much later than that. It does not appear in the Bible simply because it was not invented when most translations were written - and because there is a tendency of translators to stick with the pre-existing words of earlier translations for familiarity, so even later translations tend to use the same older terminology.
Male homosexuality appears all through the Bible, and is repeatedly condemned.
Yup I agree with you. People focus too much on the actual word and not the definition.
He didn't say things like "don't jump out of an airplane," or "don't steal your neighbor's car," either.
Because He didn't HAVE** to.
1. Because He had already Written it. And it's obvious that those who listened to him knew what it Scripture said.
2. Because it follows from ALL that IS Written, even if cars and airplanes didn't yet exist when He talked to them.
There is such a thing as "stupid unto death." And millions are now seeing the consequences, first hand.
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** He'd already said He wasn't changing ANY of the Torah or Prophets (aka, "TNKH", or 'old testament' - the Scripture they all knew.)
Because He didn't HAVE** to.
1. Because He had already Written it. And it's obvious that those who listened to him knew what it Scripture said.
2. Because it follows from ALL that IS Written, even if cars and airplanes didn't yet exist when He talked to them.
There is such a thing as "stupid unto death." And millions are now seeing the consequences, first hand.
-------------------------------------
** He'd already said He wasn't changing ANY of the Torah or Prophets (aka, "TNKH", or 'old testament' - the Scripture they all knew.)
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Ironically, the word also (deliberately???) OBFUSCATES the fact that "a man lying with a man as with a woman" - ie, MALE 'homosexuality' - is specifically forbidden, called "abomination", and assigned a death penalty.
Which, conflated with the feminine variant, masks the fact that Scripture is simply SILENT on that behavior.