How will the church be prepared?

[Taller on my knees]

It seems to me that there are numerous forces that will soon decriminalize polygamy. It very nearly seems inevitable, simply by the eventual course of the legal system, whether we lobby for it or not. Most of the world is only aware of polygamy in the context of the Mormon or Muslim faiths. Evangelical and other churches usually (but not always) don't reach out to these groups with any great measure of effort. Once polygamy is decriminalized, it will certainly be practiced by many people...Mormons, Muslims, Christians, Buddhists or agnostics among them. Who do you suppose is the group most likely to be critical of the practice? I believe it will be the Christian Churches, by and large.

What will be the fate of those who choose to live in such a marriage? Will they just be shunned further away from the church and be a vivid example to unbelievers of the hypocrisy and condemnation of the church? Or is this an opportunity knocking? A chance for the church to witness behind those doors that were once closed to them?

I remember reading that, at the Wakefield Church Congress held in October 1886, the Bishop of Exeter, Dr. Bickerstoth, quoted a letter from General Charles G. Gordon (Queen Victoria's favorite general), saying that he could... "convert all of Africa with ease if a continuance of polygamy to such an extent might be allowed", having said that missionaries in general appear to refuse baptism to those converts who decline to put away all wives but one. He then proceeds to ask, "If, then, the man determines to be baptized at any cost, the terrible question must arise, which wife must he retain, and what is to become of those he rejects? Suppose a not improbable case. A man has three wives, the first old and childless, the second the mother of all his children, the third the last married and the best beloved. And yet this is the sore necessity to which some would reduce the catechumen who desires baptism." Henry Venn then answered, that as the first marriage only is legal, the first wife must be kept, and the others repudiated as unlawful connections.

What a lost opportunity to share the Gospel!...ALL of Africa!!! And this was prior to the modern radicalization of Islam! I know that the methods used during those days were not the most loving, but what would our world look like today if the Anglican Church had acknowledged polygyny as a valid marriage, instead of casting aside other wives like rubbish?

I believe that the church should not be lulled into the same error this time around. We have the opportunity to do so much! All men have the ability to love. If I were an unsaved man who happened to love two or more women, what reason would I have to EVER associate with the church, knowing that one of those whom I love would have to be cast aside? We MUST get the churches talking about this topic before the laws change or we will lose so many souls that might be saved and leave our brethren to undue persecution from those who should embrace them.

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

Two things will likely happen if church history has proven to us anything in events like this in the prior years.

1. Churches that are ruled congregationally will have masses who will not allow the leaders to accept it even if they see it. If the leaders buck the people they will be ousted. Some will and will be ousted and they will form new local fellowships. Then again some fellowships will have a group internally powerful enough to stand up for the people and they will remain and the leaders who oppose it will be ousted and new ones installed.

2. Churches that are ruled from the top down will deal with it according to their faith. The more faithful will welcome the believers. If the masses do not follow suit they will leave and go somewhere else or start a new fellowship as well. Or the less faithful leaders will shun them. Some of the people will then be upset by the shunning and they will learn the truth and will go out with the people to start new organizations.

In either case we have Ephesians 1:11 working itself out. In summary it will likely work itself out in one of these ways:

-Some churches as a whole will reject it and minorities will receive it and be forced to leave and go elsewhere or start new organizations.

-Some leaders will accept it and the masses under them will not and they will seek to oust the leaders. In some cases the leaders will be ousted and in some cases they will remain and the unfaithful will leave.

-Some people will just leave and start new works and new missions without much conflict one way or the other.

-Some will will find acceptance both by the people and the leadership after serious study over the issue.

 

[Taller on my knees]

-Some will will find acceptance both by the people and the leadership after serious study over the issue.

I sincerely hope that this scenario plays out for the majority of folks. When it does become legal most churches are going to be rocked their core. The purpose of my post was to see if others had any ideas that can lighten the blow. I know from my own experience that such a revelation prompts a greater interest in God's Word. While things will be rough for a while, I feel that this may also start a great revival, if the church is properly prepared.

 

[Isabella]

I sincerely hope that this scenario plays out for the majority of folks. When it does become legal most churches are going to be rocked their core.

Is it? You know I really wonder if many mainstream Christians will even think about it beyond those Zany Mormons!, I think how much of an impact it makes depends on you guys and how much you are willing to challenge the Status Quo from within your religious community.

B
x

 

[Taller on my knees]

Hi Bels,
I think that the bulk of the secular world will not really care one way or another (although the stir may draw some unbelievers to read God's Word out of sheer curiosity). The Church, on the other hand, will be rocked because for so many, a practice that they knew to be sinful and forbidden, will now be called into question. If we've been so wrong for so long on one doctrine, the question rises in the back of our minds, "how many other doctrines have we been wrong about, following blindly all that we were taught"? That's a very uncomfortable feeling and it will certainly cause many to reexamine the Word with fresh eyes. I think that it will also serve to expose our own hypocrisy and (hopefully) leave us in a far more humble state.

 

[Isabella]

Ok thank you, I see where you are coming from now

B

 

[steve]

there were denominational splits over slavery.

this issue has much more potential for dividing churches and denominations.

 

[Taller on my knees]

there were denominational splits over slavery.

this issue has much more potential for dividing churches and denominations.

It's funny how things can run in circles. Abolitionism was the basis of the early feminist movement. Now we see a desire for the return of Patriarchy. Not that the feminist movement was without merit, men abused their natural position of headship because they stopped listening to God's Word. I have serious doubts as to whether or not Patriarchy can even be practiced effectively outside of His design.

Any time that we step outside His plan and will, there is potential for abuse. I don't fault anyone for wanting to end an abuse of power, but the human solutions that we devise are always a poor substitution for God's perfect plans.

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

Taller on my knees wrote:

I have serious doubts as to whether or not Patriarchy can even be practiced effectively outside of His design.

I have no doubts at all about that. Nothing works outside His design. It may appear to work for a time, but ultimately, His way proves to be the only way to do anything and be successful.

Now...what is His design for patriarchy?

1. The boss is never wrong.
2. The man is boss.
3. If the man is ever wrong, see #1 and #2.

Oops, that is the world's idea of patriarchy, base on what they see "christian" men doing. Here is the real design by our Creator:

1. Men, love your own women as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her. (Eph. 5:25)
2. Women, submit to your own man as to the Lord. (Eph. 5:22)
3. Any problems, see #1 and/or #2, whichever is appropriate for the situation.

 

[sola scriptura]

I think there is another option that hasn't been presented. Just as the Church speaks even more strongly against same-sex relationships since there is some legal protection for them now, I think that the legalizing (or even just de-criminalizing) of polygamy will be a flashpoint for ultra-conservative Christians to rally around/against. It will be the spiritual neo-con's new sin du jour, and thus cause many conservative Churches to dig their heels in even deeper.

I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it We had a little taste of this while we were being ex-communicated.

Katie

 

[Dr. K.R. Allen]

It will be the spiritual neo-con's new sin du jour, and thus cause many conservative Churches to dig their heels in even deeper.

Indeed many of the older mainline groups will go that route. It is like some forms of the Fundamentalists who still preach and teach against all forms of alcohol in every sense of the term. Instead of allowing it to be a conscience issue and rightly focusing on the sin of drunkeness they oppose any and all alcohol as evil. Those groups that treat patriarchal love unions in that light will lament over it and will argue and preach against it for years to come.

But of course there is always hope because as the older mainline groups slowly die and transition out the new and upcoming fundamentalists and evangelicals will get it right and gradually build new organisms.

Old Schools of will fade downward and New Schools of Thought will rise upward. As one fades away another is being built by the sovereign work of the Lord.

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

sola scriptura wrote:

We had a little taste of this while we were being ex-communicated.

So far, I have found exactly one person in any position of leadership within any established church who might be willing to discuss Biblical Marriage with me. I was railroaded out of the denomination where I was an Assistant Pastor without the denomination's own bylaws being so much as hinted at, and the Overseer who replaced the one who excommunicated me made an empty promise that I will get a fair hearing. Four months after making that promise, he has backtracked and I am still waiting for that hearing. But I'm not holding my breath.

Then, at the church where I landed (and stayed for about one year) the Teaching Pastor refused to ask the other members of the Council of Elders to meet with me to discuss Biblical Marriage. I offered to meet with all four Elders plus anyone else that he wanted to have there to back him, but his response was, "I've learned not to argue with someone who has spent 1,000 hours studying something." Guess he's afraid of what he might learn. Then, to top it off, his Mother's Day "sermon" last May, just weeks after my conversation with him (when I was told that I can't help with children's church due to my belief that polygyny is not a sin; apparently, belief in plural marriage = child molester!), was aimed straight at what he assumes I believe. He used the story of Elkanah, Hannah, and what he called Elkanah's "brood mare," Peninnah, to "prove" that polygyny is a sin. I lost all respect for that coward who hid behind his pulpit and butchered God's Inspired Word to present his phony arguments, knowing that there was no way I could respond with the truth. That is one of the largest and fastest-growing churches in Gallup. They have a 1st-century model of Church government. (A Council of Elders, all co-equal, rather than a Senior Pastor and several Assistant Pastors.) One of the Elders has read my Doctoral Dissertation. His only comment was, "You are wrong." He did not offer any Scriptural evidence that I am wrong about anything in the Dissertation, of course, nor did he specify exactly what I am supposedly wrong about. Maybe I am wrong about some things, but if so, someone should be able to show me from Scripture!

I have decided that the best thing to do in both cases is this:

Mark 6:11 NKJV And whoever will not receive you nor hear you, when you depart from there, shake off the dust under your feet as a testimony against them. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!"

The spiritual leaders willfully reject Biblical teaching. Their attitude seems to be, "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with Scriptural Truth."

I have some hope that the Pastor of the church I am now attending might discuss Biblical Marriage with me. He seems to be open to it, but time will tell. I had one conversation with him already about the state-licensed marriage system, and he didn't kick me out...yet. In fact, he had me preach last Sunday evening. (My sermon was evangelistic, not something about Biblical Marriage. He told me to preach whatever the Lord laid on my heart.) I also teach an English-language Bible study on Wednesday nights (the church has a mostly-Spanish-speaking congregation), and he has allowed me the liberty to teach whatever the Lord lays on my heart for that as well.

Martin Luther's desire was to reform the Roman Catholic Church from within, but he was excommunicated. The fact that many of us have also been excommunicated puts us in good company!

Let the Reformation continue!

 

[Anonymous]

Just as the Church speaks even more strongly against same-sex relationships since there is some legal protection for them now, I think that the legalizing (or even just de-criminalizing) of polygamy will be a flashpoint for ultra-conservative Christians to rally around/against. It will be the spiritual neo-con's new sin du jour, and thus cause many conservative Churches to dig their heels in even deeper.

I hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it:

This pretty much echos my own opinion on the matter. Like you, I hope I'm wrong but I just don't see things improving drastically in respect to polygyny. We are living in a time where the world has become increasingly hostile to any presentation of the Gospel. Churches are routinely divided on many important issues. Most people find the practice of polygyny too foreign and many Christians are openly hostile to it (women in particular). I would love to be wrong about this but I don't see polygyny being accepted in the mainline Christian Church anytime soon, if at all.

I do believe that we should form our own churches and fellowship groups that are based on the entire Word Of God. Polygyny should be a part of that but never the main focus.

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[Anonymous]

Perhaps the Christian community could better be prepared for possible legalization of polygyny if we were to lay the necessary foundation work, before we attempt construction of the poly roof. Polygyny has a bad reputation in the USA. It carries the foul odor of tyrannical men, forced marriage, underage marriage and mousy oppressed women. It is no wonder that sincere believers are repelled by the mere mention of plural marriage. The romantic world-view of marriage is an idyllic vision of singing blue birds and rainbows (See Snow White). The real world view of marriage is one where there are grand hopes and dreams that are doomed to failure because of the number of failed attempts and people that keep hoping that the next marriage will be "the one". The doctrine of feminism has altered the structure of families so much that there is no longer a commonly understood foundation on which we can build happy, fulfilling families and homes.

We need to repent and do again the first works. Lay the proper foundation. That foundation is godly patriarchy. Even that name is evil sounding to most, portraying oppression and abuse. Patriarchy without Christ can very well be oppressive, but patriarchy modeled after our own Father (patriarch) is liberating and joyous. Order and structure are necessary for any machine or organization to function smoothly, marriages and families are no exception.

I fear that any effort on our part to introduce sincere believers and/or churches to polygyny is doomed to failure, if we start with the roof first. Let us demonstrate to fellow believers that we have homes where Christ is the patriarch and where the husband/father takes his leadership from the Lord. The man of the family that leads and loves as the Lord does, will not be a tyrant, he will not be oppressive, but he will definitely be the leader. The wives that submit to and revere their husbands, as believers are to respond to Christ will not be rebellious and obstinate, but will be an example of the love of God to others. Such a family, operating in harmony with each other, loving and being loved will be a magnificent testimony to other believers. Children being under the protection and authority of their parents, growing into mature young adults will make the most staid believer or church envious of their faith. When wives happily subject themselves to the leadership of their husband and do their best to support his leadership, other believing men are going to be envious. When husbands are wholly committed to the authority and will of the Lord and loving their wives and family as Christ loves them, other women and children are going to desire to be a part of a similar family. True, there will always be those who are unconvinced and obstructive, that can't be changed. Yet, I believe we are shooting ourselves in the foot, when we should be preparing for a great race. Let us not be too quick to write off our brethren for not believing as we do, if we do not show them by example first and then by precept that which we have discovered.

Let us begin working on the foundation, before calling in the neighbors for a wall and roof raising.

 

[sola scriptura]

I very much agree, Pastor Whitten. However, how will these people ever see these loving families if we aren't allowed in their lives? The people who formerly fellowshipped with us refuse to do so out of concern that they would be fellowshipping with people who are in total disobedience to God's Word. When will we have the chance to be a "good example" to the Church?

 

[Taller on my knees]

My sentiments exactly, John (though you tend to say things in a far clearer manner sometimes). The original intent of my post was to find ideas of how we can prepare our bretheren before Polygamy is legalized so that any discussion in the churches at least has some weight of Truth to balance the knee jerk reactions that are bound to occur. Being a living example to the world is a great start, but feel that there should be something more we can do to gently prod at traditions and actually get people to think critically about what they believe and why.

If I had an extra $40,000, I could take out a full page ad in the Sunday edition of The New York Times....or would that be to subtle? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Taller on my knees]

I very much agree, Pastor Whitten. However, how will these people ever see these loving families if we aren't allowed in their lives? The people who formerly fellowshipped with us refuse to do so out of concern that they would be fellowshipping with people who are in total disobedience to God's Word. When will we have the chance to be a "good example" to the Church?

Great point!

 

[Anonymous]

there should be something more we can do to gently prod at traditions and actually get people to think critically about what they believe and why.

And herein lies the rub!
Human nature tends to prefer that which is both comfortable and known. Many human critters love to stay within their comfort zones. In my experience, only a small handful seem to be willing to take the Berean approach.

Blessings,
Fairlight

 

[Anonymous]

I very much agree, Pastor Whitten. However, how will these people ever see these loving families if we aren't allowed in their lives? The people who formerly fellowshipped with us refuse to do so out of concern that they would be fellowshipping with people who are in total disobedience to God's Word. When will we have the chance to be a "good example" to the Church?

Not having a telescope to the future, I can only make an educated guess. I doubt that we will have an effect on institutions, but we may very well have a positive effect on individuals, those in our families, neighborhoods and the work place. These then, may have the effect on institutions. We are pioneers that lead the way. Pioneers are seldom the builders.

 

[MarvelousMarvin]

Pastor John, you are right that we need to repent and do the first works again, and show what a real Biblical Family is supposed to be. But, as was pointed out, we can't show the established Church what real Biblical Family Values are since most of us have been disfellowshipped and they won't even talk about it with us. In their minds, we are all apostates, reprobates, and any other similar label they can think of.

Maybe it's time to start out own church?

But that idea is not attractive to me, since there are somewhere around 50,000 denominations (I've heard as high as 75,000) in the US already, and every one of them claims an exclusive possession of truth.

IMHO, denominationalism is a stench in God's nostrils. Jesus prayed this:

John 17:11 NKJV Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. (bold added for emphasis)

I, for one, plan to do exactly what God tells me to do, as best as I can hear and understand His voice. Even if I am alone in doing what God says to do. But, as God told Elijah...

1 Kings 19:18 NKJV Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.

IHopefully, there are more than 7,000 of us who have not bowed the knee to the pagan-Greco-Roman-Catholic false doctrine about traditional family values.

I seriously doubt that very many existing churches, if any at all, whether large denominations or small independent congregations, will accept the truth about Biblical Family Values, regardless of whether or not polygyny is decriminalized. The monogamy-only traditional family values lie has been forced down our collective throat for about 1,000 years, and anyone who dares to even question the official party line is demonized.

At least they can't burn us at the stake, like they would have done to Martin Luther had his friends not kidnapped him and hid him from the inquisitors.