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Here is to civil disobedience! We aught to obey God not man.

That is great to see.

My first reaction was "it's good to see a pastor with courage".

But then I realised that it doesn't actually take much courage to defy a lockdown order like that. It's not like Christians are being threatened with death, like our brothers in Nigeria. There's a chance of imprisonment, and as severe as that is, and as much as I wouldn't want it myself, it still isn't death. And if MacArthur was imprisoned that could be the trigger that caused the remainder of the US church to actually rise up and defy the government, and he knows it, so even if arrested he'd unlikely be in jail for long. This is not an unusually courageous action - it is how every Christian should behave.
So the fact that we see such an easy action as "courageous" shows the sad state of the church. It's not that MacArthur is especially courageous - it's that he's normal and too many other church leaders are cowardly.
I don't say this to take anything away from MacArthur, I am very impressed by his actions. But when I look at the rest of the church in the light of his actions, I see a rather sad sight.
 
frederick said:
Here is a link to a response. You will understand this better if you have read the first letter from the Grace Community Church leaders.
https://www.9marks.org/article/a-time-for-civil-disobedience-a-response-to-john-macarthur/
Click to expand...

I can see this author's viewpoint and on the surface it seems reasonable, but he doesn't take into account that
  1. Even outdoor services were considered verboten at one point in this pandemic (even drive n services where people never left their cars!
  2. Other indoor activities like going to market or hardware stores are not forbidden. Churches have been lumped in with some strange entities as "nonessential", while others have been allowed to remain open.
  3. California's governor encouraged protesting in huge numbers with zero social distancing and zero monitoring of mask wearing. The retort is that 'it was outdoors' but there are orders that seem to dictate wearing if masks outdoors as well in the Golden State. It's hypocrisy.
I don't reveal my location online, but I will say this, I know of many churches in my area that have openly ignored lockdowns during this time and local authorities don't even bother to intervene.
 
frederick said:
Here is a link to a response. You will understand this better if you have read the first letter from the Grace Community Church leaders.
https://www.9marks.org/article/a-time-for-civil-disobedience-a-response-to-john-macarthur/
Click to expand...
If you read his clarifying second statement also (link at the bottom of his article), it becomes clear that he is not at all opposed to GCC's decision to defy the government, he only has concern with their statements that imply that all churches must do this, and to not defy the government would be unfaithful - ie that GCC is right and everyone else is wrong. He believes this statement about the behaviour of others is too strong. That is all. He isn't really opposing them in any way, he is supporting them, but disagrees with some small details of how they worded their own letter. This is detail only and does not detract from the courage of GCC in taking this stand, which he acknowledges and supports.
 
FollowingHim said:
If you read his clarifying second statement also (link at the bottom of his article), it becomes clear that he is not at all opposed to GCC's decision to defy the government, he only has concern with their statements that imply that all churches must do this, and to not defy the government would be unfaithful
Click to expand...
Yes, I read the second statement. I posted the link precisely for the reasons you and @Mojo have stated. We need to understand the reasons for both sides of this debate and not be condemning/legalistic toward those who stand on either side.
 
I may have 9marks relply too quickly, and I may not have time to go back to it, but I understand the spirit at which McArthur wrote his replies. I understand that many on this site have left brick and mortar churches, but it's still the location that the overwhelming number of believers in this country find their fellowship and worship.

I know firsthand of believers who have had a rough transition and are yearning for fellowship with other believers but their churches are locked down. Live streams just aren't doing it for them. I have a friend that has not even bothered to tune into anything during lockdown and has expressed some serious questions about the faith that concern me.

I applaud McArthur issuing the challenge. This is character check time. How easily will we roll over? I believe it's a wheat and chaff moment. The author of the counter argument talked about building codes and other government mandates as an example of following peacefully within the government. But the laws apply evenly and equally to all (residential and commercial). As I stated, the lockdown or serious limitation of churches while casinos are allowed to operate (like in Nevada) is not an equal protection. It's arbitrary and often governed by politics or revenue streams (churches don't generate sales taxes).

MacArthur surprised some a while back by saying that the American Revolution was technically not a "Christian" action. Taking up arms in revolution against a sovereign, in his interpretation of scripture, doesn't follow NT guidelines. I think he's being consistent here, though. He's not telling other churches to revolt with violence, or march on city hall, then judging them if they don't. He's advocating for a silent protest of presence against an authoritarian and blatantly anti Christian regime in California that is clearly hypocritical.
 
Just an alternative tangential 2 cents here: it is also the case (and I know this from family members who fall into this category) that many churches are more proud to have their outdoor services to demonstrate how down they are with the COVID restrictions than they would be to defy anything. It's just another form of virtue signalling.
 
Keith Martin said:
Just an alternative tangential 2 cents here: it is also the case (and I know this from family members who fall into this category) that many churches are more proud to have their outdoor services to demonstrate how down they are with the COVID restrictions than they would be to defy anything. It's just another form of virtue signalling.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I also know of at least a few churches that conducted services outdoors when they were technically forbidden, then used it not only as a middle finger and dare to local authorities, but to also blast gospel music and evangelistic messages via the loudspeaker. They weren't hassled by law enforcement.

I do know of a Christian legal organization that warned Pastors that if they did defy lockdown orders that as the representative of the organization, they should be prepared to be arrested and taken to jail (like the gym owners in New Jersey were yesterday).
 
Mojo said:
I agree, but I also know of at least a few churches that conducted services outdoors when they were technically forbidden, then used it not only as a middle finger and dare to local authorities, but to also blast gospel music and evangelistic messages via the loudspeaker. They weren't hassled by law enforcement.

I do know of a Christian legal organization that warned Pastors that if they did defy lockdown orders that as the representative of the organization, they should be prepared to be arrested and taken to jail (like the gym owners in New Jersey were yesterday).
Click to expand...
I totally agree with you here, @Mojo. We are talking about two different types of scenarios. The example I cited was not in any way defying lockdown orders, and I know from listening to my parents that they are entirely unsupportive of churches operating outside of whatever dictates their governmental overlords place on them. And there is no doubt in my mind that they are more proud of going to church with their masks on sitting in their separate cars out in the parking lot where everyone can see them driving by than they ever have been to do so behind a church's closed doors.

Because they tell me so.
 
I heard that the county was trying to get a court order against him and the court wouldn’t grant it.
 
The update I overheard hubby listening to said they were trying to hold some in contempt of court and have them fined. Trouble is there was no court order. So their motion to have them held in contempt was denied.
They I think affirmed churches as essential too.
 
Joleneakamama said:
They I think affirmed churches as essential too.
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t go that far, I think that they are finding out that their mandates are not as enforceable as they want them to be.
 
Mandates, at this point, are to test resistance levels. They'll be more enforcable when the mandatory vaccine is rolled out. Then, public opinion willback and embolden the enforcements...
 
steve said:
I think that they are finding out that their mandates are not as enforceable as they want them to be.
Click to expand...
Because they aren't as legal as they want. Yet. They're learning how to change the law to make them completely legally enforceable in future.

Our government is doing whatever they want and changing the law as they go to make it legal. They lost a court case recently which showed that the first 9 days of our lockdown were illegal - but from that point on it was legal as they'd finally dotted all their i's and crossed their t's. The courts just judge whether things are permissible under the law - and the government makes the law so can do whatever they like. Court cases, even ones they lose, just help with the refinement process.

Your constitution does give extra protection, in theory, but it too is just another document made by men that can be ignored, superceded or changed in order to enable whatever a government wants to do.
 
FollowingHim said:
That is great to see.

My first reaction was "it's good to see a pastor with courage".

But then I realised that it doesn't actually take much courage to defy a lockdown order like that.
Click to expand...

We look favorably at these things because most US churches rolled over without a fight like lambs before the slaughter. We have very low expectations.

FollowingHim said:
Because they aren't as legal as they want. Yet. They're learning how to change the law to make them completely legally enforceable in future.

Our government is doing whatever they want and changing the law as they go to make it legal. They lost a court case recently which showed that the first 9 days of our lockdown were illegal - but from that point on it was legal as they'd finally dotted all their i's and crossed their t's. The courts just judge whether things are permissible under the law - and the government makes the law so can do whatever they like. Court cases, even ones they lose, just help with the refinement process.

Your constitution does give extra protection, in theory, but it too is just another document made by men that can be ignored, superceded or changed in order to enable whatever a government wants to do.
Click to expand...

All true. The root problem here is the government has no respect for the will of the people nor their liberties.
 
Not 100% sure of an exact date but The River opened in August. Recently had graduation for their students. On TV 5 or 6 nights a week.
 
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