Re: Help from the ladies
More inspired wisdom! Best thread ever!
More inspired wisdom! Best thread ever!
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Help from the ladies
- Thread starter torahlovesalvation
- Start date
Re: Help from the ladies
Glad it helped, Lila!
Glad it helped, Lila!
Well, Shara saw everyone's post. We talked and commented. Then the discussion turned to is poly his permissive will or perfect? I'll let you's have at it first. What say ye
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Re: Help from the ladies
You still after the ladies opinions or is a free for all?
You still after the ladies opinions or is a free for all?
A free for all! 
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Re: Help from the ladies
I struggle with the whole premise. God's will is perfect. There isn't a lesser will and a greater will. Some will pull out examples of Moses doing that or Paul saying this but God's expressed will is perfect. Creation conforms to His thoughts and Words. If He commanded it, regulated it, endorsed and even practices it (we're all His brides remember) then it's perfect.
This young woman's problem is that she doesn't trust God to do what's good for her. In her heart she is convinced He is mean and going to make her do something she doesn't want to (spoiler alert: He is.) What she has to decide is not whether polygyny is right or good or okay or bad or not a higher intelligent pan dimensional shade of the color blue, she has to decide will she trust God and His Word to be true and bring good things to her. No matter what she decides about marriage how she answers those questions will affect everything about the rest of her Christian walk.
Now if she decides that God and His Word are true and good and can be trusted she will have to admit that God doesn't differentiate between polygyny and monogamy and that if He doesn't she shouldn't and her only question becomes is the individual man in question in a situation she would want to join herself to or not.
And she should make no mistake, millions of women are constantly joining themselves to men who are joined to other women. They're just not be open about it or being treated the way God desires for them to be.
Most women's true objections to polygyny boil down to a refusal to give up the control and the security of being the only wife. But control and security are terrible things for a woman to wield, they preclude submission and faith. A desire for control and security is rooted in self-centeredness and fear. For a woman to be a Godly wife she has to confront and oppose those things in her life anyway, whether she be the only wife or the fifth wife. So I wouldn't even push her on poly. I would show her what a Godly wife is in scripture and polygyny just becomes a possibility that may or may not happen but doesn't concern her except on a practical level.
I struggle with the whole premise. God's will is perfect. There isn't a lesser will and a greater will. Some will pull out examples of Moses doing that or Paul saying this but God's expressed will is perfect. Creation conforms to His thoughts and Words. If He commanded it, regulated it, endorsed and even practices it (we're all His brides remember) then it's perfect.
This young woman's problem is that she doesn't trust God to do what's good for her. In her heart she is convinced He is mean and going to make her do something she doesn't want to (spoiler alert: He is.) What she has to decide is not whether polygyny is right or good or okay or bad or not a higher intelligent pan dimensional shade of the color blue, she has to decide will she trust God and His Word to be true and bring good things to her. No matter what she decides about marriage how she answers those questions will affect everything about the rest of her Christian walk.
Now if she decides that God and His Word are true and good and can be trusted she will have to admit that God doesn't differentiate between polygyny and monogamy and that if He doesn't she shouldn't and her only question becomes is the individual man in question in a situation she would want to join herself to or not.
And she should make no mistake, millions of women are constantly joining themselves to men who are joined to other women. They're just not be open about it or being treated the way God desires for them to be.
Most women's true objections to polygyny boil down to a refusal to give up the control and the security of being the only wife. But control and security are terrible things for a woman to wield, they preclude submission and faith. A desire for control and security is rooted in self-centeredness and fear. For a woman to be a Godly wife she has to confront and oppose those things in her life anyway, whether she be the only wife or the fifth wife. So I wouldn't even push her on poly. I would show her what a Godly wife is in scripture and polygyny just becomes a possibility that may or may not happen but doesn't concern her except on a practical level.
Re: Help from the ladies
I too have misgivings about perfect vs permissive. No-one has really opened that doctrine up to me in a way that i could give it much weight.
I mean, Paul is of the opinion that men should touch zero women, but they should get married as a concession to the fact that many of them will commit sexual immorality if they don't marry. So one might call unmarried celibacy the "perfect will of God" and marriage as the "Permissive will of God", and I would be in agreement. But Paul is clear that self-controlled celibacy is a gift that not everybody has. Which is to say that what we call the "perfect will" in this case is not obtainable without special dispensation from the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit has not gifted a man in this way, is God's provision of the natural use of women therefore somehow "Less Perfect"?
I would suggest that the perfect will for the man who is able for whatever reason to be celibate without being sexual immoral is unmarried celibacy.
For the man God provides a wife for: The perfect will is not whether or not he marries. He must marry. The perfect will is that he dwell with her with understanding, that he honors her, that he Loves her as Christ loves the Church.
For the man for whom God provides an additional wife: The perfect will is not whether or not he marries her, but that he dwell with both of them with understanding, that he honors them, and loves them as Christ loves the Church.
I think.
I too have misgivings about perfect vs permissive. No-one has really opened that doctrine up to me in a way that i could give it much weight.
I mean, Paul is of the opinion that men should touch zero women, but they should get married as a concession to the fact that many of them will commit sexual immorality if they don't marry. So one might call unmarried celibacy the "perfect will of God" and marriage as the "Permissive will of God", and I would be in agreement. But Paul is clear that self-controlled celibacy is a gift that not everybody has. Which is to say that what we call the "perfect will" in this case is not obtainable without special dispensation from the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit has not gifted a man in this way, is God's provision of the natural use of women therefore somehow "Less Perfect"?
I would suggest that the perfect will for the man who is able for whatever reason to be celibate without being sexual immoral is unmarried celibacy.
For the man God provides a wife for: The perfect will is not whether or not he marries. He must marry. The perfect will is that he dwell with her with understanding, that he honors her, that he Loves her as Christ loves the Church.
For the man for whom God provides an additional wife: The perfect will is not whether or not he marries her, but that he dwell with both of them with understanding, that he honors them, and loves them as Christ loves the Church.
I think.
Re: Help from the ladies
To extend that further - His perfect will is to obey Him. However He commands you personally. That is all.
I also believe He has a plan for our lives, but it's not a simple set-in-stone plan that if we fail to follow we've lost out. A simple plan would be a map with a line drawn on it to follow, if you stray off the line you're outside His will. But His plans are like a GPS unit giving you directions to the destination He has in mind. You don't know the destination, all you hear is "turn right in 300 metres". If you don't turn right, you hear "recalculating - turn right in 3.5 kilometres". However far you stray off His perfect plan, He creates a new plan that should you turn today and repent, you can still follow His will for your life from that point on. The road might now be longer and more difficult since you didn't obey the instructions earlier, but it's still His plan. And for someone starting at the point you are now at, it is His perfect plan. And you still don't know what the destination is, or what sights you'll pass on the way.
To extend that further - His perfect will is to obey Him. However He commands you personally. That is all.
I also believe He has a plan for our lives, but it's not a simple set-in-stone plan that if we fail to follow we've lost out. A simple plan would be a map with a line drawn on it to follow, if you stray off the line you're outside His will. But His plans are like a GPS unit giving you directions to the destination He has in mind. You don't know the destination, all you hear is "turn right in 300 metres". If you don't turn right, you hear "recalculating - turn right in 3.5 kilometres". However far you stray off His perfect plan, He creates a new plan that should you turn today and repent, you can still follow His will for your life from that point on. The road might now be longer and more difficult since you didn't obey the instructions earlier, but it's still His plan. And for someone starting at the point you are now at, it is His perfect plan. And you still don't know what the destination is, or what sights you'll pass on the way.
Re: Help from the ladies
Yes, I like the way that Samuel explained it. Our obedience is His perfect will.
We miss out on a lot of YHWH's dreams for us when we are following our own dreams.
But we are never more than one decision away from being in the center of His will.
Yes, I like the way that Samuel explained it. Our obedience is His perfect will.
We miss out on a lot of YHWH's dreams for us when we are following our own dreams.
But we are never more than one decision away from being in the center of His will.