Hatred comes from THE LORD

[Johan Paulsson]

Hello,

I know, see, understand and recognize that many people having problems with me about the topic concerning hatred. Many people has been taught and trained that all forms of hating sinners and unbelievers are wrong, bad and evil. I do believe, on the other hand, that Christian and Believing men and women can hate sinners and unbelievers personally without committing sin against the commandments of THE LORD, the law of THE LORD, the will of THE LORD and THE SCRIPTURE.

I do not feel much welcome here.

How do you welcome a person who is completely different than you in doctrines and lifestyle?
Speaking down on this person because he finds it Biblical to hate the enemies of THE LORD?

It feels just like being shunned, hated, abhorred and rejected by most ''churches'' for the reason of wanting them to be consistent with the scripture about salvation, love, hatred and righteousness etc.

Where is love found? Where do I see behaviors and attitudes which we can see from Believing and Christian men and women inside the scripture?

Had Believing and Christian men and women, inside the scripture, difficulties with understanding and knowing that THE LORD hates all workers of iniquity? Had Believing and Christian men and women difficulties with hating all workers of iniquity? You admit to hate and abhor me and my messages?

You understand perfectly that if you hate my messages, my behavior, my approach and my attitude then you hate me as a person as I am the one who has chosen to stand for and behind these messages, this behavior, this approach and this attitude.

My messages, my behavior, my approach and my attitude are connected with my personality.

So much hate and abhorrence I have seen from people concerning me as a person, i.e. concerning my messages, my behavior, my approach and my attitude

If people reject my doctrines then they also reject me as a person.
If people hate my doctrines then they also hate me as a person.

If there would not be any hatred and neither abhorrence from people for me then they would have had no problems with accepting and receiving what I am saying with joy, love, peace and happiness.

They would have had no problems with having me around them.

I have no problems with seeing myself as hateful as I do hate sin and I do hate people who are committing sin. Psalm 5, Proverbs 6, Genesis 19 and Psalm 11 proves and shows that THE LORD hates sinners and unbelievers. Psalm 139 talks about King David hating his enemies with a perfect hatred.

It was not a sin for King David to hate his own enemies and neither to hate the enemies of THE LORD.

This does not mean that I do not show and neither prove people, who are committing sin, benevolent and moral love. People may say ''Hate is a strong word''.

I go by what the scripture says about hatred and if people do not agree with me concerning hatred then they have a free will to believe what they want to believe in.

I am not afraid of taking up, and neither afraid to speak about, controversial topics. I do believe people are confused and deceived if they do not believe that a Christian and a Believing man/woman can hate sinners and unbelievers, and yet showing and proving benevolent and moral love, at the same time toward them.

I am not going to change my mind about this topic concerning hatred, except there be anyone who can logically explain all these verses about hatred and therefore prove me wrong.

I find scriptures backing up and supporting what I am saying concerning hatred, both in Old Testament and in New Testament. The New Testament does not contradict The Old Testament.

Jesus Christ's words in Matthew 5:44-48 does not contradict what I am saying as I am speaking about benevolent and moral love. Matthew 5:44 is speaking about moral and benevolent love in context, not about personal love for sinners and unbeliever.

I see this topic about hatred as a very important and necessary topic to understand, accept, receive and know.

Biblical families should not be afraid of talking about this topic and neither be afraid of hating the enemies of THE LORD. Biblical families wants to be consistent with the scripture concerning hatred.

If people are inconsistent with the scripture concerning hatred and love then I am not seeing them as Christians and neither as Believers in Jesus Christ.

If a person does not have hatred and abhorrence for sinners and unbelievers then there is something wrong with this person. Let us be honest with one another and with ourselves. We all hate and abhor something and we all hate and abhor someone, either righteously or unrighteously.

We show and prove hatred by shunning people and by rejecting people. In many cases people show and prove hatred in a mocking-lying-ridiculing-and-laughing at attitude and behavior.

People can lie about someone else because they do not like certain doctrines, because they have been taught, and they are themselves teaching, something completely else. This is a common tactic from people who have no desire to stop their sinning. Any evidence against those who are committing sin everyday would be responded with hatred and abhorrence from them.

I have read and studied about the hatred of THE LORD. I have read and studied about Believing and Christian men hating sinners and unbelievers inside the scripture.

Using logic, reason, rationality, soundness, common sense and my own conscience leads me to believe that hatred comes natural for Christians and Believers in Jesus Christ.

I see there are two sorts of hatred: RIGHTEOUS HATRED AND UNRIGHTEOUS HATRED

Hatred comes from THE LORD. This should not come as a surprise. THE LORD has throughout history, from Genesis to Revelation, shown and proven hatred toward sinners, the wicked, evildoers, the ungodly, the unrighteous, unbelievers and workers of iniquity etc.

There is no such sentence inside the scripture where it says ''THE LORD hates the sin, but love the sinner''.

''God is love'' does not contradict the fact that THE LORD hates all workers of iniquity, sinners, unbelievers, the unrighteous, the wicked, evildoers and the ungodly etc. because of their personalities.

What do you say? Do you say that a man/woman sin by hating people who are the enemies of THE LORD? You mean to say that THE LORD does not hate sinners, but only hate sin?

Where have people got this idea from that Christian and Believing men and women are sinning if they are hating sinners and unbelievers?

Where does this idea come from that Christianity is not partially about hate?

Why would you rebuke and judge anyone according to your standard if you do not hate?

Of course Christianity is partially about hatred for sin and for the enemies of THE LORD, but also about to show and prove benevolent and moral love toward the enemies of THE LORD.

Hatred is therefore in this sense considered as love according to the scripture.

Brotherly and sisterly love we should all know and understand in the light of the scripture, about laying down our lives for one another and to have all things common with one another, to walk as Jesus Christ walked concerning moral choices.

THE LORD definitely hate sinners and unbelievers and King David wrote about his perfect hatred for the enemies of THE LORD and for his own enemies.

The doctrine about hatred is clear for you now?
Do you admit to hate people now who are different than you in doctrines and lifestyle?

We are in agreement? If you agree, then fine and good.

You disagree with me? If you disagree with me, how come?

 

[FollowingHim]

@Johan Paulsson , I approved this thread because you are correct that this is a valid topic to discuss, and it would be interesting to see the responses of others on this. And because I do want to demonstrate to you that we love you, and don't hate you. Don't make it personal about yourself, but stick to the topic, and this could be useful. Obviously, any posts that take this downhill simply won't be approved...

You are correct that there is a time and a place for hatred (Ecclesiastes 3:8). It's certainly justifiable in certain circumstances.

However, we are told that even when it is justifiable, we are NOW not to do it. There is a better way:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Furthermore:

Do you admit to hate people now who are different than you in doctrines and lifestyle?

To hate anyone who differs from us would mean hating many people who claim to follow Jesus, just because they differ from us in some detail. But rather, we are told:

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

So no, I do not hate people who disagree with me. Nor do I hate sinners (although I hate sin). It is God's job to choose who to hate, and He knows how to do so justly, and will ultimately cast those he hates into hellfire. Our job is to love each other so much that people see that we are His disciples, see that we have something different that they would want.

However, I would be interested in hearing from anybody else: Is there a valid place for hatred in our Christian walk?

 

[The Revolting Man]

May I make a suggestion @Johan Paulsson ? Slightly shorter posts would make it easier to engage with you. This is certainly one of your shorter ones but even it was a little long. Also, I can promise you that you are welcome here. This is the home for garrulous, opiniated and stubborn religious misfits.

 

[Phillip]

I see there are two sorts of hatred: RIGHTEOUS HATRED AND UNRIGHTEOUS HATRED

Righteousness indignation would be a better term.

The verse used by followinghim was perfect. “A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another as I’ve loved you”. By doing this, as the scripture states, all men will know that you are Christ’s disciples.

Christ showed his love by dieing for our sins. One proclamation from Him would have had Him sitting on an earthly throne. (Just a strong hunch of mine) But he chose a different way.

Some woman caught in sin and was about to be stoned and He showed compassiin for her and watched her accusers go away. Christ also did not accuse her and told her to go and don’t sin any more.

He went to the sinners of His time to talk to them about Gods love, things of God. If I hear you correctly, these same souls would be hated by you while Jesus showed them a better way.

He showed love to these sinners instead of disdain, hatred. He didn’t like their sins, but showed the people compassion and love. Thus the term “love the sinner, hate the sin!” You are correct, it is not in the Bible. But neither are instructions on riding a bicycle, but you probably have risen on one from time to time. And even though bicycles are not mentioned in the Bible and you rode one, no sin was committed.

Now to a more important part of your discussion, you seem to feel that because we do not agree with your theology, we go so far as hate you due to many of us disagreeing with yours doctrine. Recently, I began a thread on the time span in Genesis 1 regarding days. Some believe it is a literal 24 hour day. Others believe it was a period of time that is undefined. There has been great documentation on both sides presented. I personally lean toward a time period. But the discussion has forced me into looking into the literal 24 hour time line.

We disagree, but I know these guys don’t hate me or my views, it’s just pure intellectual discussion. It’s been a lot of fun to me.

Within this group of individuals on this site, you have the accumulated knowledge of probably centuries of study. People who have been around the world and back, literally. If I may recommend, instead of taking these insights as a ‘Stoning’, consider the words and allow time for the Holy Spirit to open yourself up to possibilities He wants you to learn.

 

[ContraMundum]

I think it would be beneficial for us to first define our terms. I might come back to this to offer anything I uncover when I have more time, but I suggest we start there if we are going to give @Johan Paulsson the sound logic he is requesting. Here are questions I have in mind that might help us explore this issue.

1. What is the biblical definition of hate?
2. What is the biblical definition of love?
3. Is hate the opposite of love?
4. Is it possible to love and hate someone or something simultaneously?
5. Are we ever commanded to hate anyone?
6. How does Luke 14:26 fit into all of this?
7. What about Leviticus 19:17-18?

 

[steve]

I think it would be beneficial for us to first define our terms. I might come back to this to offer anything I uncover when I have more time, but I suggest we start there if we are going to give @Johan Paulsson the sound logic he is requesting. Here are questions I have in mind that might help us explore this issue.

1. What is the biblical definition of hate?
2. What is the biblical definition of love?
3. Is hate the opposite of love?
4. Is it possible to love and hate someone or something simultaneously?
5. Are we ever commanded to hate anyone?
6. How does Luke 14:26 fit into all of this?
7. What about Leviticus 19:17-18?

You have pretty much captured the thoughts that I was headed towards.

@Johan Paulsson, in the book of Job we see YHWH having conversations with Satan. We don’t see Him treating Satan with what we would understand as hatred. Somehow YHWH’s attitude has to be factored into your position.
Quite frankly, I see no point in focusing on the negativity of your message. I disagree with your message, but what I feel towards you is more akin to pity than anything else. Not that I actively pity you, I just wish that you were less self-focused and married to the hatred of your message. It pretty much seems that you desire the rejection/hatred and would receive them as a badge of honor by the way that you focus on them.

 

[Johan Paulsson]

@Johan Paulsson , I approved this thread because you are correct that this is a valid topic to discuss, and it would be interesting to see the responses of others on this. And because I do want to demonstrate to you that we love you, and don't hate you. Don't make it personal about yourself, but stick to the topic, and this could be useful. Obviously, any posts that take this downhill simply won't be approved...

You are correct that there is a time and a place for hatred (Ecclesiastes 3:8). It's certainly justifiable in certain circumstances.

However, we are told that even when it is justifiable, we are NOW not to do it. There is a better way:

Furthermore:

To hate anyone who differs from us would mean hating many people who claim to follow Jesus, just because they differ from us in some detail. But rather, we are told:

So no, I do not hate people who disagree with me. Nor do I hate sinners (although I hate sin). It is God's job to choose who to hate, and He knows how to do so justly, and will ultimately cast those he hates into hellfire. Our job is to love each other so much that people see that we are His disciples, see that we have something different that they would want.

However, I would be interested in hearing from anybody else: Is there a valid place for hatred in our Christian walk?

We see hatred and love differently.
This is very clear, obvious and evident based on what you have said and done so far.

You know already whom THE LORD hates and whom THE LORD loves.

If you have read and studied the scripture, and if you use common sense and if you use your own conscience, then you understand and know whom THE LORD hates and whom THE LORD loves.

You have possibly already understood this, but I do not see people as Christians just because they claim Christianity. Their doctrines and lifestyles needs to be judged in the light of the scripture, just like you and other people needs to judge me in the light of the scripture.

I hate people who calls themselves Christians, while they are:

1. FOLLOWING THIS WORLD
2. CONFORMING THEMSELVES TO THIS WORLD --> Romans 12:2
3. LOVED BY THIS WORLD
4. ACCEPTED BY THIS WORLD
5. RESPECTED BY THIS WORLD
6. LOVING THIS WORLD --> James 4:4, 1 John 2:15-16
7. DEFENDING THIS WORLD
8. SUPPORTING THIS WORLD
9. ENCOURAGING THIS WORLD (Sinful)
10. RESPECTING THIS WORLD

My understanding of being a Christian is being a follower of Jesus Christ, but following this world and conforming oneself to this world is not being a Christian and neither being a disciple of Jesus Christ.

I hate lies and I hate liars. I do keep myself to topic and on topic.

It is enough for me to judge your action as hateful, as a sort of hatred/abhorrence, if/when you want to limit me on this forum for the reason that you hate my approach, my attitude, my behavior and my messages.

Can you, and do you want to, admit your abhorrence and hatred for my approach, my messages, my attitude and my behavior, i.e. hatred for my personality, openly and publicly here on this forum? You dare?

My approach, my attitude, my behavior and my message are all connected with my personality, which means you hate me personally if you have anything against what I am saying and doing, and which also makes you want to come to the decision and the determination to limit me on this forum.

You do believe in this sort of hatred that you have proven and shown me. Well, you may not call it as hatred, but I do consider your action as hatred. In my view, in my opinion and in my eyes it proves and shows hatred to limit me on this forum. Do you understand and know what hatred is in my view, in my opinion and in my eyes now?

 

[FollowingHim]

We love you Johan, and also love everyone else on this forum. When one person starts accusing others of not being Christians and generally makes the forum an uncomfortable place, we may be forced to take control of the situation for the benefit of all. I control my children too but that doesn't mean I don't love them.

On the other hand, if it is right to hate those you disagree with theologically, then it would be biblically correct for me to choose to hate you, so there wouldn't be anything to complain about. I'd just be following your own theology. I don't hate you, I'm just pointing out hypocrisy in your selfish attitude. What's good for you is good for all.

Is there a larger theological discussion you want to have, or are you just wanting to talk about yourself?

 

[Cap]

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

How does this fit?

 

[WaterSpirit]

Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
Colossians 3:12‭-‬17 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/col.3.12-17.NIV

 

[Mojo]

@Johan Paulsson,
I also agree with allowing this post on here. YEARS... ago, maybe 1992? I did a study on this topic with others at my church, and it is valid. I frankly can't remember all of it, and it's not too big of a concern of mine right now, but I do remeber that much of what we concluded was that GOD has proven in scripture to have the capacity to hate, but hate perfectly. That may not make sense to us, but he has discernment in his omniscience that we don't have.

Since we are not perfect, we need to rely on loving our neighbors, enemies, and following the golden rule as Christ commanded. It's hard, but we are called to carry our cross, not have an easy road.

However, I don't see hatred of sin itself, its consequences, and it's dysfunctions as being beyond what we are called to do. I hate sin within me. I'm not about to pluck out my eye or cut off my arm, but it's disgusting enough within me to cause anguish.

I do agree with @ZecAustin that keeping your posts simpler would help us to unpack your doctrinal pronouncements easier.

God bless you Johan

 

[Johan Paulsson]

@Johan Paulsson , I approved this thread because you are correct that this is a valid topic to discuss, and it would be interesting to see the responses of others on this. And because I do want to demonstrate to you that we love you, and don't hate you. Don't make it personal about yourself, but stick to the topic, and this could be useful. Obviously, any posts that take this downhill simply won't be approved...

You are correct that there is a time and a place for hatred (Ecclesiastes 3:8). It's certainly justifiable in certain circumstances.

However, we are told that even when it is justifiable, we are NOW not to do it. There is a better way:

Furthermore:

To hate anyone who differs from us would mean hating many people who claim to follow Jesus, just because they differ from us in some detail. But rather, we are told:

So no, I do not hate people who disagree with me. Nor do I hate sinners (although I hate sin). It is God's job to choose who to hate, and He knows how to do so justly, and will ultimately cast those he hates into hellfire. Our job is to love each other so much that people see that we are His disciples, see that we have something different that they would want.

However, I would be interested in hearing from anybody else: Is there a valid place for hatred in our Christian walk?

You allowed my OP and you commented under my OP about what I have asked and what I have said.

Questions

1. You believe in having your opinions and your doctrines? Yes or no?
2. Do you respect and accept other people to have their own opinions and doctrines? Yes or no?

I see myself as justified to talk about what I consider as sound doctrine according to the scripture concerning hatred as you seem to all speak down on me for the reason of standing behind and for hatred for today.

I do ask questions about your stance concerning hatred as well and pointing out if I do see inconsistency with your messages about hatred. I do test your spirit, as you are supposed to test my spirit.

I do judge you in the light of the scripture, based on your own words, thoughts and actions.
No lying and no slander.

I do believe, understand and know that hatred is an important and necessary topic to deal with as there are many people I have encountered who has said that they are against hatred, but yet according to my view and my opinion they are showing and proving hatred and abhorrence for those who are confronting and rebuking them.

This is not selfishness and neither hypocrisy what I am doing. This is defending myself.

What I am doing is what is called being a Christian Apologist. If I consider your message about hatred as inconsistent with the scripture, then I see it as my right and freedom to do what I can to persuade and convince you that hatred is according to the scripture and not considered as sinful by THE LORD.

We are not promised a tomorrow, therefore I do judge your doctrines and life in the light of the scripture just as I judge anyone else in the light of the scripture.

Questions

3. Do you feel uncomfortable if I would see you as not a Christian and neither as a Believer in Jesus Christ?
4. What if I would say ''You are not a Christian and neither a Believer in Jesus Christ, because...''?
5. Can you take hard truths even if it goes against your own doctrines and your own lifestyle?
6. Would you be willing to listen if someone tells yu that you are not a Christian and neither a Believer in Jesus Christ?
7. Are you willing to change your doctrines and lifestyle if the scripture is against your doctrines and lifestyle?
8. Why are you saying ''You are correct that there is a time and a place for hatred (Ecclesiastes 3:8). It's certainly justifiable in certain circumstances.'' and then later on saying ''However, we are told that even when it is justifiable, we are NOW not to do it.''?
9. Do you ever reflect over what you are saying and doing?

Please reflect over what you are saying and doing.

Questions

10. Now I am not longer correct?
11. Now I am incorrect, according to you, because you think and believe that Matthew 5:44-48 speaks against personal hatred?
12. Where does it say ''...even when it is justifiable, we are NOW not to do it.''?

I have explained in my OP that Matthew 5:44-48 does not speak against my view about hating sinners and unbelievers personally. I do not consider myself as a sinner, but as a former sinner saved by grace through faith.
I do see a big problem if you hate my personality as I see myself as a Christian and as a Believer in Jesus Christ. You need to make righteous judgments instead of falsely accusing me of being selfish and hypocritical.

I do not see myself as hypocritical and neither as selfish. You seem to have made up your own standard about being hypocritical and selfish. I explained in my OP that there are two kinds of hatred: RIGHTEOUS HATRED AND UNRIGHTEOUS HATRED. Righteous hatred is supported and backed up by the scripture. Unrighteous hatred is condemned. I do consider it as unrighteous hatred if you hate me personally as I am not a sinner and neither an unbeliever, but a former sinner and a former unbeliever.

We know by reading and studying the scripture that the unrighteous, the unbelieving and sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God, why? Because God hates them and have no fellowship with them as they are committing and practicing sin and unrighteousness.

Sinners, the unrighteous and unbelievers are the enemies of God and we are commanded to be perfect in love by showing and proving them benevolent and moral love.

Questions

13. Do you understand and know what benevolence means?
14. Do you believe in contradictions?
15. Do you believe that hatred was alright in Old Testament, but is not allowed inside New Testament?
16. You mean you are consistent with what the scripture teaches about hatred when you first confirm that there is a time and place for hatred and that it is justifiable in certain circumstances, and then later on saying ''However, we are told that even when it is justifiable, we are NOW not to do it.''?
17. How do you come to this conlusion based on the scriptures I have already provided from Old Testament?
18. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness?

I am not talking about hatred as in making physical harm, i.e. to not be a physical threat.
I am talking about to hate sinners and unbelievers for their messages, for their attitudes, for their behaviors and for their approaches, i.e. to hate sinners and unbelievers personalities.

Being consistent with the scripture is important and necessary in order to understand and know what is right or wrong, what is moral or immoral, what is righteous or unrighteous, what is mature or immature and what is good or evil etc.

 

[Johan Paulsson]

@Johan Paulsson,
I also agree with allowing this post on here. YEARS... ago, maybe 1992? I did a study on this topic with others at my church, and it is valid. I frankly can't remember all of it, and it's not too big of a concern of mine right now, but I do remeber that much of what we concluded was that GOD has proven in scripture to have the capacity to hate, but hate perfectly. That may not make sense to us, but he has discernment in his omniscience that we don't have.

Since we are not perfect, we need to rely on loving our neighbors, enemies, and following the golden rule as Christ commanded. It's hard, but we are called to carry our cross, not have an easy road.

However, I don't see hatred of sin itself, its consequences, and it's dysfunctions as being beyond what we are called to do. I hate sin within me. I'm not about to pluck out my eye or cut off my arm, but it's disgusting enough within me to cause anguish.

I do agree with @ZecAustin that keeping your posts simpler would help us to unpack your doctrinal pronouncements easier.

God bless you Johan

No perfection = No holiness = No righteousness = No Godliness = No love for THE LORD = Hatred.
No perfection = No holiness = No righteousness = No Godliness = No love for Christian and Believing men and women = Hatred.

No perfection = No holiness = No righteousness = No Godliness = No love for your neighbor = Hatred.
No perfection = No holiness = No righteousness = No Godliness = No love for your enemies = Hatred.

There are examples of perfect people inside the scripture based on their obedience, submission and humbleness, and those who were not perfect needed to repent and turn away from all sin and from all unrighteousness.

Disobedience is hatred. Pride is hatred. Selfishness is hatred. All this is unrighteous hatred.

Righteous hatred would be hatred toward those who practice these sins and unrighteousness.

If you would hate sin then you would not commit/practice sin. If you sin then you love sin and hate THE LORD. Practicing and committing sin is hateful.

Practicing and committing sin and unrighteousness is a free will choice, not something that a man/woman is forced to do.

If you are not morally perfect then you need to repent from what makes you imperfect and from now on walk in the light in order to have fellowship with THE LORD.

Revelation is very clear that those who are blessed are those who keep and do the commandments of THE LORD.

Read Revelation 22:14-15...

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The unbelieving, the abominable, idolaters, fornicators, adulterers, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers and all liars will have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

Revelation as well speak about people not being found perfect and that they needed to repent from all their sins and unrighteousness.

 

[Phillip]

In a few places in the Bible there are scripture saying sin is fun for season. It is not sanctioning or condoning sin, just stating the facts. We stay away from sin due to the effects and results of sin. We’ve learned to strive to live a Godly life thru Christ Jesus.

The harshness of Johans words, as I read them this time, has given me cause to be concerned. Two things I see as possibilities.

1. In my lifetime, people that are so judgemental of others are usually guilty of the things they are accusing others of doing. To understand this more fully, do a study on Jezebel. It’s fascinating to discover how a Jezebel spirit can move in with manipulation tactics to get others off balance.

2. This type of rhetoric is quite similar used by people that get sucked into cults, Al Qaeda, Taliban and the like. It’s that ol’ Hate, hate, hate speech.

Seen this before, in January and February, 2008, I saw the results of a local hate club in Baghdad lob 121 rockets into the green zone for 2 months straight. Do you have any idea how annoying it is to work on a helicopter while 121’s are blowing up around you. It’s really annoying. And counter productive.

You sir, can keep your hate all you want and no one here can stop you. You have been given good advice here. I think it was followinghim that quoted:

John 13 (KJV)
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

But, you’ll probably ignore this scripture due to it not fitting your narrative.

 

[FollowingHim]

I don't think this is getting anywhere...

 

[steve]

I don't think this is getting anywhere...

I don’t see how it can go anywhere. He is completely focused on one thing to the exclusion of all else and will feel fully justified and morally superior as his message is rejected.

Addendum:
YHWH is much more complex than some can allow Him to be. When I focus only on the verses that @Johan brings forth, his position makes sense.
But he is cherry picking and ignoring every Scripture that is problematic to his position.
Sadly, his gospel becomes hatred-based due to his focus. He is only using this forum to earn more Rejection merit badges. IMO

 

[Pacman]

He has to stop writing a novel for every post. And I don’t think the focus on hate is healthy for him or anyone else here.

I do consider it as unrighteous hatred if you hate me personally as I am not a sinner and neither an unbeliever, but a former sinner and a former unbeliever.

1 John 1:8
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

 

[Johan Paulsson]

If we men are open with one another I hope there should not be any problems in solving differences.

We all have knowledge and understanding in something that other people may not have knowledge and understanding in.

Instead of falsely accusing me of being a hypocrite and being selfish, please, reason with me.

You can talk with me without making false accusations about me and my doctrines.

It just does not make it any better to falsely accuse me of being selfish and a hypocrite.
I do not falsely accuse you of sinning, but I do judge you righteously according to the scripture.

I do not believe in women to teach men, but that differences in doctrines and lifestyle should be discussed between men. Women can ask questions, but are not to usurp authority over men and neither to teach men concerning the scripture. If women wants to usurp authority over men and teach men concerning the scripture then it is a sign of hatred against a woman's place and position in life.

Doctrinal and lifestyle differences can be solved.
I truly believe in solving problems, i.e. to solve differences in doctrines and lifestyle.

I have no doubts about this as we have a free will concerning moral choices and we all having a conscience which makes us understand and know what is right or wrong, what is good or evil and what is light or darkness etc.

Questions:

1. This is why we are here to solve problems and to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ according to Godliness, right?
2. Is there any trust problem here?
3. You do not trust me and what I have said and quoted?
4. How to win your trust, acceptance and respect?
5. Do I have to submit to your doctrines in order to be respected, trusted and accepted by you?
6. Do you believe that Jesus Christ did preach and teach messages that people always accepted and respected?

Don't think I am not doing my best in order to reach out to you, even though people are calling me a false teacher, a heretic, a hypocrite, selfish, a fool, crazy, confused, hard headed and demon possessed etc.

There are so many things I could have chosen to do instead of being here and writing messages to people who are speaking down on me because they do not agree with me concerning my messages, my approach, my attitude and my behavior etc.

I see John 13 in a different way, as I am willing to read and study the text in its context.

I am a Street Evangelist, including a Street Preacher, in Europe. I know scriptures that people uses in order to ''prove'' their doctrines to be right, but yet they are living worldly and carnal lives without complete changes in their lives and that is why wickedness is still going on because of people who are living carnal and worldly lives and who are not willing to hate what is going on in this world.

John 13 is talking about love between brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, between Believing and Christian men and women. John 13 is not speaking about love for sinners and unbelievers personalities.

This does not take away the command to love our enemies in a moral/benevolent way, as we need to prove and show benevolent and moral love toward sinners and unbelievers who has rejected the blood of Jesus Christ by committing and practicing sin and unrighteousness against the commandments of THE LORD, the will of THE LORD, the law of THE LORD and THE SCRIPTURE.

Benevolent and moral love means to have an upright and a perfect heart and to care about people's soul and well-being, to show and prove that we care about what people are saying and what they are doing, to confront people if what they are saying and doing are against the Christian faith even though we may be rejected and shunned.

Christian and Believing men and women are searching and seeking for sinners and unbelievers well-being and soul. This is why Confrontational Street Evangelism, including Confrontational Street Preaching, is necessary, important and needed in these times as there are many lost souls who need to become saved from sin and unrighteousness. If people are still practicing and committing sin and unrighteousness, then they are not saved from sin and neither from unrighteousness. The Son of God was manifested that he might destroy the works of the devil in their lives.

John 13 was spoken by Jesus Christ to his own disciples, which were Jews, and commanded them to love one another and that people should recognize and know them as being disciples of Jesus Christ in loving one another. John 13 is therefore not contradicting my view that Christians and Believing men and women can hate sinners and unbelievers, and yet shoing benevolent and moral love toward them.

A good example we read in Romans 12:20-21 by doing good toward our enemies instead of doing evil, in order to overcome evil with what is good.

Giving our enemies food to feed their stomach, to give them modest clothes to wear and to give them water or anything healthy to drin in order to not get dry and in order for them to get what they need in order to survive and live these are important and necessary things true Christians needs to do if they.

In doing good toward our enemies we will heap coals of fire on our enemies and hopefully they see our good deeds and praise the one who is alone worthy to be worshipped.

I am a man, not God. I am not to be worshipped. I have sinned many times in past, but do not consider myself being in sin for the moment. I can though choose to sin in the future if I want to, but I am not forced to sin.

This love, which is spoken of in John 13, is not merely about saying ''I love you'', but we see in the book of Acts how Believing men and women had all things common and laid down their lives for one another. They were not used saying ''I love you'', but they proved and showed love in deed and in truth.

1 John 3:18 says ''My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.''

The scripture does speak clear enough in order for us to continue to deal with where we differ and why we differ and hopefully we come to agreement about what the doctrine of Jesus Christ according to Godliness is and means and how it should be lived.

 

[Johan Paulsson]

He has to stop writing a novel for every post. And I don’t think the focus on hate is healthy for him or anyone else here.



1 John 1:8
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Taking a text out of context is not going to work on the day of judgment.

I have studied and read the scripture and do not seee 1 John 1:8 speaking against what I have said.

It is your interpretation of 1 John 1:8 that contradicts all other scriptures that speaks about men of God who were perfect, just, holy, righteous, without blemish, without spot, without wrinkle, Godly, good, wise, intelligent, without sin, mature, modest, humble, obedient and submissive.

Be serious about the scripture. Be consistent with the scripture.

If you are a sinner then you are sinful and then you are practicing and committing sin.

1 Corinthians 15:34 says ''Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.''

1 John 3:7 says ''Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.''

James 2:19-24 says ''Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.''

1 Peter 4:16-19 says ''Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.''

It is absolutely shameful if people teach that people can not stop being sinners and can not stop committing/practicing sin/unrighteousness/evil. This makes THE LORD angry and this makes me angry.

Shameful if people do not get angry and neither hating the situation where there are ''Christians'' who are teaching a licence to sin as they believe that they are saved no matter what they say, think and do.

Those who teach that you can have salvation in sin are heretics, hypocrites, idolaters and false teachers, and therefore not Christians, neither Believers in Jesus Christ and nor saved by grace through faith.

Faith is proven by love and love is not proven in sin. Sin proves unbelief.

Questions:

1. Fornicators are walking by faith?
2. Adulterers are walking by faith?
3. Murderers are walking by faith?
4. Selfish people are walking by faith?
5. Idolaters are walking by faith?
6. Liars are walking by faith?
7. Drunkards are walking by faith?
8. Effemine men are walking by faith?
9. Cowards are walking by faith?
10. Women, who wants to have authority over men, are walking by faith?
11. Women, who wants to teach men concerning the scripture, are walking by faith?
12. Rapists are walking by faith?
13. Racists are walking by faith?
14. Slanderers are walking by faith?
15. Men and women, who are immodestly dressed, are walking by faith?
16. Men and women, who are conforming themselves to this world, are walking by faith?

etc.

There is no salvation in sin and this is very clear in many scriptures talking about salvation and righteousness.

I have not seen, neither read and nor heard about one scripture that teaches that people can be saved no matter what they say, think and do.

If people are defending, encouraging, approving of, supporting and advocating for sin and unrighteousness and claims to have the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, then it naturally and normally makes me angry and hateful, having a righteous indignation.

Whether you like to use the word hatred or not, the word hatred is found inside the scripture.

Anger and hatred are not separated. If you are hating someone then you are also angry with this person, if you are angry with a person then you are also hating a person and wanting this person to change his/her ways.

It is always justified, healthy and good to have righteous hatred for sin and for those who are committing sin. Anger against any person is showing and proving hatred.

Use logic, reason, soundness, common sense, conscience and rationality.

If you get angry over anything that has been said and done by a person then you are hating this person and wanting this person to change behavior, attitude, conduct, words, approach, messages and actions.

 

[Mojo]

He has to stop writing a novel for every post. And I don’t think the focus on hate is healthy for him or anyone else here.



1 John 1:8
[8] If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Thank you was about to post that verse myself.
@Johan Paulsson, if you are calling me a dirty, rotten sinner who needs to repent....I wear the badge proudly.
I'm happy to have met such a perfect, righteous and holy person. I hope you mention me when you are sitting at the right hand of The Father.