Bartato (not real name) here to introduce myself and greet everyone. Male, in 40's and married to my college sweetheart for 20+ years. Sadly, we have no children, fertility issues. Longtime evangelical Christian of the conservative/Calvinist Baptist flavor (with interest in Torah observance). I love gardening/homesteading. I like guns and am a bit of a prepper.
Shout-out to the "Revolting man". I watch a lot of your YouTube videos, and like them a lot.
I found this site (Biblical families) years ago, and benefitted from the resources, but remained a lurker, and have popped by from time to time.
I hope you don't mind a long read. I've got some time for writing.
Back about fifteen years ago, I was reading through the whole Bible in an intentional way, and figured out that God basically seemed to permit polygyny in the Old Testament period. When God told David that He gave his master's wives into his arms, and would have given more if David wanted more, that made it pretty clear to me (2 Sam. 12).
I didn't think much more about the issue for a few years. Then about nine years ago, I started wondering why Old Testament men like David and Jacob had multiple wives, but it was somehow not permitted under the New Covenant. I wondered if any Christians out there thought it was still permitted.
Note that our infertility issues were part of the reason for my curiosity, as was the fact that my wife and I have never had physical relations as regularly as I would like. I know my motives were mixed, somewhat honorable but also mixed with the sin of discontentment in my heart towards God and my wife. I did not cherish my wife like I should have. I thought I would like to have an additional wife.
I knew Muslims, fundamental Mormons, and animistic Africans practiced polygyny, but don't regard those groups as proper followers of Christ.
I googled "Christian polygamy" and went down the rabbit hole. Once my mind considered the possibility, I saw things EVERYWHERE in Scripture that made it clear that patriarchal polygyny is legitimate marriage and not adultery.
I was shocked! The Bible is totally consistent regarding this issue.
The Torah very clearly permits it, and Christ and His apostles never say otherwise. To the contrary, the New Testament seems to clearly affirm the Old Testament definition of marriage.
I was also shocked to learn that such notable Christians as Augustine and Luther seemed to understand that the Law permits it.
Also, polygyny isn't the main issue, patriarchy in submission to Christ is the issue.
God the Father is the Head of Christ, Christ is the Head of the man, and the man is the head of the woman (and resultant offspring). A man may be a godly patriarch with one wife, or with more than one. Likewise, a man can fail to be a godly patriarch with one wife, or with more than one.
I want to be a godly patriarch.
I knew I was in trouble. Nobody in my circles believed what I now understood. I kept quiet and kept studying the Bible to make sure. I also began reading everything I could get my hands on.
I read all three volumes of "Thelyophthora" by Martin Madan (highly recommended). I also read "Man and Woman in Biblical Law" volumes 1 and 2 by Tom Shipley (highly recommended).
I became very firmly pursuaded that patriarchal polygyny is Lawful in the sight of the Most High. I knew I had to take the matter to my church elders, and I was pretty sure it wouldn't go well.
I took months to prepare, and asked for a meeting. I prayed, and prepared. In high school, I was on the debating team, so I know how to make logical arguments. I might be naive, but I'm not stupid and hold a Doctorate in a scientific field.
I prepared a 20+ page summary of my arguments and the Biblical supports for them. The Biblical evidence is massively overwhelming. I also addressed each of the traditional arguments I have heard all my life in the church, and pointed out the problems with them.
I had a bit of hope. The elders of that church are pretty solid Bible guys, and have shown courage holding to unpopular but Biblical doctrines (like male headship in the church and home). That church has a lot of big homeschooling families. Hardcore creationists, calvinists, complementation gender roles, etc.
Furthermore, it wasn't just one professional pastor, but a pastor and about six serious lay elders. Together they might stand fast on God's Word.
Still, I knew it would take a miracle. A miracle did not happen that day.
The elders were kind of overwhelmed. They did generously allow me over an hour to explain my views. They also seemed to understand that the Bible treats polygamy as marriage.
They didn't really give me any answers that night (about 7 years ago).
By the way, I was a small group Bible study teacher and lay worship leader at the church at that time.
I didn't hear anything from them for several months. After that, I met privately with an individual elder a time or two and pushed the issue.
Eventually, they wrote me a short two page response where they ignored all the Biblical issues I raised, and re-stated the traditional arguments against polygamy. Furthermore, they said we didn't need to talk about the issue anymore.
I was a bit fired up.
At that time, the pastor was a member of my Bible study group. I thought, "let's push this". I decided that the Bible study group would go chapter by chapter through the book of Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy deals with polygamy, and I addressed the issue when we got to the relevant texts.
That is when things heated up. The people in the group freaked a bit, but seemed to understand (or at least be open to it) when I explained things to them. Our Bible study group discussed the issue several times over the period of a few months, when we were at the relevant passages.
By then, the pastor had moved to a different Bible study, but one elder's single adult daughter was a member of our group. She went home distraught and dad was upset.
The elders didn't really mind if I theoretically believed in polygyny, but they couldn't let me talk openly about it.
Long story short, down the road a bit, I was slandered as a false teacher, and basically kicked out of church.
I pointed out to them that false teachers secretly introduce false teachings, they don't openly lay out everything to the entire elder board months in advance to teaching it.
We went to another church about six years ago. The elders of our old church told the elders of our new church about my views. (small world of Calvinist Baptists)
I got to have a big meeting with the new church elders. I layed out all my evidence to them and provided them copies of Thelyophthora and whatnot.
They didn't agree with me.
I find it fascinating that normal Christians are often open to considering patriarchal marriage and the possibility of polygyny. They can sometimes understand what the Bible says about the issue. Yet somehow church leaders, especially paid pastors can't seem to grasp it.
We will all answer to the Master.
Anyway, let's get back to the new church elders.
They say they are happy to have us worship and fellowship with them (and regard me as a Christian brother), but don't think I should join as a formal church member.
They have also said that they would potentially like to have me teaching Bible classes, but can't as long as I hold my current beliefs regarding marriage.
It's been kind of pretty calm since then, and I don't really talk much about my views. Don't ask don't tell policy?
This all has been very difficult for my wife. She kind of understands what the Bible teaches about polygamy but doesn't like the idea on a gut level.
She was embarrassed when her husband was drummed out of church as a "false teacher". She lost a lot of friends from our old church. We really were close to people there.
She is also frustrated that we have not been able to officially join the new church, though she has found friends there.
Most tragically, I have badly wounded my sweet wife's heart by "wanting a second wife". She pretty much understands that God seems to allow it, but she took me wanting one as a rejection of her. Now her barrenness was compounded by her husband wanting to have an additional wife so that he could have more sex, and become a father apart from her. The thought of that is devastating to her.
That is very hard, and makes her feel deeply unloved. I know I hurt her and I am grieved to have done so.
Here we are.
We should have just adopted kids. Maybe we still can.
Still, I am glad to understand God's Word more accurately. Studying polygyny taught me about patriarchy, and is helping me better understand the Torah, and consider how God's Law applies to me as a New Covenant gentile background believer in Christ. I'm still wrestling with all this.
I have also learned to place less confidence in man. People will let you down. Even the best men you know tend to be weak and prone to cowardice.
I don't need an additional wife. My life is in the Hands of my Father in heaven and my Master Jesus Christ. I need to serve Christ well by being a good husband to the one wife I have. I am thankful to God for her. I hope I can love her better in the days to come.
I am theoretically open to having more than one wife, but also understand that my wife totally couldn't deal with that at this time. God sometimes works miracles, but He is under no obligation to do so.
I'm trying to trust my Father and follow the Master. I will try to love and lead my small family well.
Bartato
Shout-out to the "Revolting man". I watch a lot of your YouTube videos, and like them a lot.
I found this site (Biblical families) years ago, and benefitted from the resources, but remained a lurker, and have popped by from time to time.
I hope you don't mind a long read. I've got some time for writing.
Back about fifteen years ago, I was reading through the whole Bible in an intentional way, and figured out that God basically seemed to permit polygyny in the Old Testament period. When God told David that He gave his master's wives into his arms, and would have given more if David wanted more, that made it pretty clear to me (2 Sam. 12).
I didn't think much more about the issue for a few years. Then about nine years ago, I started wondering why Old Testament men like David and Jacob had multiple wives, but it was somehow not permitted under the New Covenant. I wondered if any Christians out there thought it was still permitted.
Note that our infertility issues were part of the reason for my curiosity, as was the fact that my wife and I have never had physical relations as regularly as I would like. I know my motives were mixed, somewhat honorable but also mixed with the sin of discontentment in my heart towards God and my wife. I did not cherish my wife like I should have. I thought I would like to have an additional wife.
I knew Muslims, fundamental Mormons, and animistic Africans practiced polygyny, but don't regard those groups as proper followers of Christ.
I googled "Christian polygamy" and went down the rabbit hole. Once my mind considered the possibility, I saw things EVERYWHERE in Scripture that made it clear that patriarchal polygyny is legitimate marriage and not adultery.
I was shocked! The Bible is totally consistent regarding this issue.
The Torah very clearly permits it, and Christ and His apostles never say otherwise. To the contrary, the New Testament seems to clearly affirm the Old Testament definition of marriage.
I was also shocked to learn that such notable Christians as Augustine and Luther seemed to understand that the Law permits it.
Also, polygyny isn't the main issue, patriarchy in submission to Christ is the issue.
God the Father is the Head of Christ, Christ is the Head of the man, and the man is the head of the woman (and resultant offspring). A man may be a godly patriarch with one wife, or with more than one. Likewise, a man can fail to be a godly patriarch with one wife, or with more than one.
I want to be a godly patriarch.
I knew I was in trouble. Nobody in my circles believed what I now understood. I kept quiet and kept studying the Bible to make sure. I also began reading everything I could get my hands on.
I read all three volumes of "Thelyophthora" by Martin Madan (highly recommended). I also read "Man and Woman in Biblical Law" volumes 1 and 2 by Tom Shipley (highly recommended).
I became very firmly pursuaded that patriarchal polygyny is Lawful in the sight of the Most High. I knew I had to take the matter to my church elders, and I was pretty sure it wouldn't go well.
I took months to prepare, and asked for a meeting. I prayed, and prepared. In high school, I was on the debating team, so I know how to make logical arguments. I might be naive, but I'm not stupid and hold a Doctorate in a scientific field.
I prepared a 20+ page summary of my arguments and the Biblical supports for them. The Biblical evidence is massively overwhelming. I also addressed each of the traditional arguments I have heard all my life in the church, and pointed out the problems with them.
I had a bit of hope. The elders of that church are pretty solid Bible guys, and have shown courage holding to unpopular but Biblical doctrines (like male headship in the church and home). That church has a lot of big homeschooling families. Hardcore creationists, calvinists, complementation gender roles, etc.
Furthermore, it wasn't just one professional pastor, but a pastor and about six serious lay elders. Together they might stand fast on God's Word.
Still, I knew it would take a miracle. A miracle did not happen that day.
The elders were kind of overwhelmed. They did generously allow me over an hour to explain my views. They also seemed to understand that the Bible treats polygamy as marriage.
They didn't really give me any answers that night (about 7 years ago).
By the way, I was a small group Bible study teacher and lay worship leader at the church at that time.
I didn't hear anything from them for several months. After that, I met privately with an individual elder a time or two and pushed the issue.
Eventually, they wrote me a short two page response where they ignored all the Biblical issues I raised, and re-stated the traditional arguments against polygamy. Furthermore, they said we didn't need to talk about the issue anymore.
I was a bit fired up.
At that time, the pastor was a member of my Bible study group. I thought, "let's push this". I decided that the Bible study group would go chapter by chapter through the book of Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy deals with polygamy, and I addressed the issue when we got to the relevant texts.
That is when things heated up. The people in the group freaked a bit, but seemed to understand (or at least be open to it) when I explained things to them. Our Bible study group discussed the issue several times over the period of a few months, when we were at the relevant passages.
By then, the pastor had moved to a different Bible study, but one elder's single adult daughter was a member of our group. She went home distraught and dad was upset.
The elders didn't really mind if I theoretically believed in polygyny, but they couldn't let me talk openly about it.
Long story short, down the road a bit, I was slandered as a false teacher, and basically kicked out of church.
I pointed out to them that false teachers secretly introduce false teachings, they don't openly lay out everything to the entire elder board months in advance to teaching it.
We went to another church about six years ago. The elders of our old church told the elders of our new church about my views. (small world of Calvinist Baptists)
I got to have a big meeting with the new church elders. I layed out all my evidence to them and provided them copies of Thelyophthora and whatnot.
They didn't agree with me.
I find it fascinating that normal Christians are often open to considering patriarchal marriage and the possibility of polygyny. They can sometimes understand what the Bible says about the issue. Yet somehow church leaders, especially paid pastors can't seem to grasp it.
We will all answer to the Master.
Anyway, let's get back to the new church elders.
They say they are happy to have us worship and fellowship with them (and regard me as a Christian brother), but don't think I should join as a formal church member.
They have also said that they would potentially like to have me teaching Bible classes, but can't as long as I hold my current beliefs regarding marriage.
It's been kind of pretty calm since then, and I don't really talk much about my views. Don't ask don't tell policy?
This all has been very difficult for my wife. She kind of understands what the Bible teaches about polygamy but doesn't like the idea on a gut level.
She was embarrassed when her husband was drummed out of church as a "false teacher". She lost a lot of friends from our old church. We really were close to people there.
She is also frustrated that we have not been able to officially join the new church, though she has found friends there.
Most tragically, I have badly wounded my sweet wife's heart by "wanting a second wife". She pretty much understands that God seems to allow it, but she took me wanting one as a rejection of her. Now her barrenness was compounded by her husband wanting to have an additional wife so that he could have more sex, and become a father apart from her. The thought of that is devastating to her.
That is very hard, and makes her feel deeply unloved. I know I hurt her and I am grieved to have done so.
Here we are.
We should have just adopted kids. Maybe we still can.
Still, I am glad to understand God's Word more accurately. Studying polygyny taught me about patriarchy, and is helping me better understand the Torah, and consider how God's Law applies to me as a New Covenant gentile background believer in Christ. I'm still wrestling with all this.
I have also learned to place less confidence in man. People will let you down. Even the best men you know tend to be weak and prone to cowardice.
I don't need an additional wife. My life is in the Hands of my Father in heaven and my Master Jesus Christ. I need to serve Christ well by being a good husband to the one wife I have. I am thankful to God for her. I hope I can love her better in the days to come.
I am theoretically open to having more than one wife, but also understand that my wife totally couldn't deal with that at this time. God sometimes works miracles, but He is under no obligation to do so.
I'm trying to trust my Father and follow the Master. I will try to love and lead my small family well.
Bartato
Hopefully your wife will also eventually let us get to know her.