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God's Calling

H

Hadassah

New Member
Hello Biblical Families' people(lol),

My name is Mary (born with it). My dh is a minister/servant of God. Has been for some time, though presently he is driving a school bus while seeking God for our next path due to being asked to leave yet another congregation that didn't want the whole truth of God's word. We are presently worshiping at a Messianic congregation with wonderful people. But, even though we have been there for a little over a year now, we have always known that we won't be staying very long as God told us to, "Stay on the porch." Then last April (2012), God began revealing our "CALLING" to dh...

dh and I are on a path from God to join the ranks of the plural families and minister among them. God knows that to minister best, it helps if we have suffered the same temptations, hurts, fears, difficulties, victories, loves, etc. as those we are ministering to. But I must say, since the beginning of April 2012, when God made this calling known to dh (and a few months later when dh made it known to me - and God confirmed it with signs following), we have been fighting him (God) the whole way. Kicking and Screaming (and crying)...literally...both of us, neither of us WANTING to do this. We have a wonderful marriage of 20+ years. BUT, as of January 4, God gave dh his one and only "OUT", that of Exodus 21.1-6. dh chose to follow God's calling because he loves his Master (Jesus/Yeshua), his wife, and his children. So we are in this for LIFE.

A week or so ago God seemed to indicate which LADY. She only lives about 5 hrs away. We are currently speaking via electronic means about our ministry calling, but not about the marriage part yet. She is only 10 years younger than me. She doesn't think that God is leading her in the same direction as we are going, but God is telling us to trust him and that she is the one.

I have already perused several pages on this site and am thankful for much of the encouraging things I have read. Via study, about 4 years ago dh found that polygyny IS scriptural and we discussed it and I also studied it and came to the same conclusions. But at that time we both decided it wasn't something that we wanted. I guess God had other plans, lol.. I have struggled a lot, but I also know what God has told us about it and the promises he has made to us that will only come through walking this path.

A quick rundown of what God is doing through us:
Our marriage is to be a type of parable of the "one new man in Messiah". God told me that I am Jewish. He has given dh the name David and called me queen and star (Esther/Hadassah). He is going to "graft" a non-Jewish lady (gentile) into our marriage. In fact, we are going to have a NEW Covenant between the three of us. We are, the three of us, to become ONE (echad in Hebrew). God has told us we have to do this where no one is left out or defrauded. We are to have one bed, etc.

This is very hard for us, but I know that because God said it will be good, that it will. Sometimes it is hard to keep up the faith, though. I also know that at some point, that which is "us" will be no more and a new "us" will emerge.

Thank you for being here and having a forum I can go to for advice and support. I pray that some day I can also provide these things through my own beautiful experience on this path of polygyny.

Blessings and shalom!
Mary (Hadassah)
 
How did you hear from God that you are Jewish and dh is to marry a Gentile? I don't want to read too far into this or make errant speculation, so I thought I would just ask you to explain a bit more.

Welcome to Biblical Families, we hope you find encouragement, teaching, and counsel from the Christians here.
 
Mary,

The path to PM is a very difficult one, but is also very rewarding. As believers, it is imperative that we follow the Word of God regarding any path we follow, including PM. I would encourage you to look at the definition of marriage given in scripture and compare it to what you said below.


Hadassah said:
In fact, we are going to have a NEW Covenant between the three of us. We are, the three of us, to become ONE (echad in Hebrew). God has told us we have to do this where no one is left out or defrauded.
Mary (Hadassah)
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Marriage is a covenant between one man and one woman. A man and a woman become one by the wife joining to her husband and by the husband cleaving to his wife. There is no where in scripture where three became one in terms of marriage. A man can have more than one covenant with more than one woman, but a covenant between two women and one man is not a marriage. It might be a good thing to covenant together to have a strong family, or to commit to live in unity, but it isn't a covenant of marriage.

It is quite possible for a man to have more than one wife and not leave anyone out or defraud anyone. It just takes thoughtfulness and time. It doesn't take a special covenant or a special set of sleeping arrangements :)
 
Hello ChrisM,

To try to answer your question (sorry it's so long, I wasn't sure EXACTLY what you were asking, so I tried to cover most of the bases), about 4 years ago I began learning to hear God. I listen to God every morning and sometimes he speaks to me at other times as well. I am still learning to "take every thought captive" and hope to mature to where I am able to hear him better and better (His sheep hear his voice and they won't follow another).

I keep a journal next to my bed and when I have a dream or just hear him say something into my head (and sometimes, though not often, it will seem auditory) I write it down to review later. I often times ask pointed questions and wait for a response. This is how I knew what kind of car to purchase and how much to pay for it (paid about 5,000 less than I thought I would have to, too).

He speaks and we can hear if we will take time consistently to listen and ponder and pray over what we have heard and what it means. I often ask people, have you ever had a thought that made you go, "Whoa! Where did that come from?" Most people answer in the affirmative. I then explain that the thought that caused that reaction was either from God or the adversary, as our own thoughts don't typically elicit this type of response. Also, if we sometimes find ourselves arguing in our minds, a lot of times this is due to a thought from one of those sources as well.

So, to make a long story short, he speaks to us and we listen and if we don't understand we ask questions until we do. Then we ask for confirmation and witnesses to be sure we have heard from him before doing whatever we believe he has told us to do. We don't get a lot of orders this way, but sometimes. Once he told me "8, 15, OUT" and sure enough, on August 15, dh was asked to step down (OUT) of his pulpit position (he didn't do anything wrong, by the way). Just the week before last he told me "Laredo is having trouble." That very day at work I received a phone call about a mis-delivery done by one of our Laredo drivers and the chaos it caused. A day or two later he said, "Aw...poor Shirley." The only Shirley I know is at work and when I showed up that same day I found out she was sick and she ended up missing several days of work that week. A while back he told me, "You don't think you're Jewish, but you are." That's how I know I am Jewish (I knew I had European blood).

These are just a few examples of the things he tells me. Sometimes I don't know what it is about until a later date when he brings something to mind that he had shared with me, or a dream I had that I didn't get at the time. Sometimes, but not every time, he will bring something to mind when I am contemplating and thinking a certain way that points out my misguided thoughts and how I am overlooking something because I want to come to a certain conclusion. He is teaching me to have complete honesty with myself and in my mind. He knows how we lie to ourselves to justify certain thoughts and understandings, etc. When we invite him into our thoughts and our lives fully, he will be there to ever-so-gently guide us into his truths (he will never lead us against his Word).

Along with the multiple messages we (dh and I) received from God over a 9+ month period as we were fighting not to do this, we also received several other "witnesses" or "signs". Someone I met via an online christian dream forum mailed me a gift. It was a figurine that you may have seen before, the "My Sister, My Friend" figurine by Willow Tree. The little piece of paper that came with it even reads, "Walk with me. And along the way, we'll share...everything". Amazing! She asked for my address the DAY BEFORE dh heard this calling from God. The figurine of two women embracing didn't arrive until after dh had told me about the calling and I had heard confirmation from God. He (God) does establish his word by two or three witnesses. DH has a friend on the east coast who we asked to confirm from God that we were hearing correctly, he replied that even though it (polygyny) goes against his theology, he could not deny what he was hearing from God for us. He has since studied it out and come to the same conclusion that we have, it is Torah-full (not sinfull). We have no doubt this is from God for us, as he has proven it without a doubt over the last 10 months. A friend of mine on the west coast even had a dream about me that confirmed what we were hearing from God when she didn't even know what we had been hearing. Anyhow, there is so much more, over 30 pages typed of notes of what we have heard. Including how he wants us to go about it and the symbology of it, etc.

I hope this has given you sort of a picture of how God speaks to me (and others). He will guide us in all things if we ask. But we should also be careful of what we ask for, I have found this out first-hand. I gave him all of me and my family, as well as my marriage, and now he is doing with it what he sees fit to bring glory to him. You could kind of say we have been going through a "Jonah" period. DH has a huge calling and it has been prophesied that his ministry will be global and many will follow after we embark on this polygynous path, though there will be much heartache and tears as well for us.

I hope this shed some light on how God speaks to us and how we came to some of the conclusions we have. Let me know if I can provide more information.

Blessings,
Mary
 
Hello sola scriptura,

I am still on this side of the polygynous relationship I am walking into, but what you describe as far as a "definition of marriage" sure sounds like "monogamy" to me. Can you please direct me to where the Scriptures actually define marriage? I would love to get more insight.

As far as three being one, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are sure a good example, though not in marriage of course. Also, Jesus example of the 10 virgins all being betrothed and waiting for a marriage ceremony with the ONE groom all at the same time, seems to contradict what you are purporting. Also, the picture of the "bride of Christ" being Jew and Gentile, two women, is also a picture of marriage that doesn't seem to comport to what you said. If you want to go to the definition in Genesis where God created one man and one woman, I would love to go there, since that might get me out of having to do this. It's sure the picture of one man and one woman, just as God created them. He certainly didn't create two or more women for Adam, seems one was enough to be a "helper comparable to him".

But since I believe that the Torah spells out the DO NOTS for polygyny, I am going to go with my current belief that if it doesn't go against these teachings of God through Moses, then we are fine doing it the way God has told me.

I welcome you to provide me with the scriptures you believe teach what you are saying, I am willing to look at them, but I am not going to just believe what you say is in the Scriptures. I have studied for myself already and I have also heard from God on this matter. But as I said, I will read the verses you suggest.

I appreciate your concerns, though I am not a novice nor am I being misled by my own mind or some other spirit. I have too much at stake to have treated this lightly and I have done my homework.

Blessings,
Mary
 
Hello Mary,

I think the point here is that Polygyny is one man (or person) with more than one wife, not three people in a marriage, that is not Polygyny, that is called a group marriage, which is fine by me of course, but that is not exactly the focus of Biblical Families. I think there may be a misapprehension here in thinking that by all being in a marriage together it is easier and more honest. This is not really the case and will, in fact more than likely complicate matters even IF (and it is a big IF) you managed to talk this woman (very bad idea) into a relationship.

I don't want to sound harsh, but I think your idea on this is based more on a very human belief that if you are all together no one will feel jealous or left out, rather than a specific divine calling. Also, I would ask you to question whether this desire boils down to you desiring a same sex relationship and this feels like a good way to get it?

Be true to yourself, definitely, but I think it is worth being self analytical and questioning ones own motives.

B
 
Good morning,

God gave me some insight last night as I was going to sleep. This is what he said, "Then, on account of man's accountability, man will be counted as being one." (The man or husband is accountable for his household, this is why in God's eyes they are considered "one". No matter how many wives he has. God considers it ONE marriage.)

I cannot make you see what I see, or change your minds, but I would like to share some of the insights we received this morning as dh and I were discussing this concept.

God works through covenant. Everyone born into the world is in at least one of God's covenants - the covenant made with Noah, the Abrahamic Covenant, the Israelite Covenant, the Davidic Covenant; yet the New Covenant is choice.

Many times, God uses the motif of the marriage covenant as a parable of his covenants with his people, whether with the Israelites or with all peoples through his New Covenant. And just as God has one New Covenant and continually brings various individuals (Jews and Gentiles) into it, and uses marriage as the picture of the church, so we can apply this picture to our own marriages. If we cannot, then God's paralleling marriage with his covenants is not a true parallel. Just as there is one God and he brings in various peoples into his ONE New Covenant, a man has ONE marriage covenant. A man does not make a different covenant with different promises with each wife (it seems he SHOULD not).

As far as accountability goes, we can see in various passages throughout the Scriptures (see below) that God will hold an entire household (family) guilty for the wrong-doings of the head (father) and, in like fashion, will hold an entire household as righteous due to the righteousness of the head (or even the wife's righteousness as seen below). This is best illustrated in the bride of Christ because we are told that if we are in him (Jesus) we are "the righteousness of God in Christ". It is Jesus' righteous and not our own that allows us to be saved and when we enter the family of God we are added to the church (family/marriage) of Christ and can walk under the covering of Jesus our head/husband.

Whole family destroyed for husband's wrongdoing: Achan - Joshua 7

The believing spouse (husband or wife) sanctifies the family (children are holy): 1 Corinthians 7

The coming wedding of the Lamb will be one marriage with many many people marrying Jesus at once: Rev 19.7

The marriage-covenant motif is throughout the entire Bible.

In the New Covenant, God does not have a separate and different covenant with each one of us, he has this New Covenant making the two-or-more ONE; this New Covenant we choose to enter and be a part of. I believe this should be the way we view human marriage. The husband has one marriage covenant, he does not have many marriages. He can offer a woman the opportunity to enter into that covenant whether he has no current wife or many existing wives and she can be brought into that relationship and become part of that family if she chooses. He doesn't make a new or different covenant each time. All wives have the same promises and relationship with him (Exodus 21.10).

When we step back and view the whole of the Scriptures for the beautiful picture of marriage that it is and how God has pursued his brides, it is very beautiful. HIS is the best example of a beautiful marriage motif.

I hope this blesses your understandings.

Shalom,
Mary
 
As far as accountability goes, we can see in various passages throughout the Scriptures (see below) that God will hold an entire household (family) guilty for the wrong-doings of the head (father) and, in like fashion, will hold an entire household as righteous due to the righteousness of the head (or even the wife's righteousness as seen below).
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Personally I would make a distinction between one household/family and one marriage.

They are not the same thing, another wife is no more in your marriage than your children are, and yet you are all one family, headed by the husband.

I hope that makes sense.

B
 
Welcome to biblical families. Hope you find much encouragement. Looking forward to maybe getting to know you in our ladies chat we have on Tuesdays. May G-D bless you and your family.

~Asia
 
Isabella, for someone who isn't a believer, you understand the principles of biblical marriage better than most believers!

Hadassah,

Marriage, according to Genesis 2, Matthew 19, and Mark 10 is the joining of one man with one woman, with the word twain (two) specifically used. When a man took more than one wife, he entered into another separate and distinct covenant of marriage with each wife. If the parable of 10 virgins is a marriage ceremony between multiple wives and one man, then there would still be a separate and distinct covenant between each woman and her husband, just as there is a separate and distinct covenant between each believer and Christ.

In Exodus 21, when a man adds another wife to his family, he is under specific obligations to that wife that are separate from his other wife or wives.

All of these scriptures define marriage as between one man and one woman. What scriptures define MARRIAGE differently that that?
 
In terms of sleeping arrangements, the only time I can think of in scripture where sleeping arrangements are discussed (Genesis 31:33), each wife is completely separate. Jacob appears to have provided not only individual beds, but actually individual tents for each of his wives, and 1-2 tents (depending on the translation) for his concubines also. This is a further illustration of each marriage being separate.
 
sola scriptura said:
Isabella, for someone who isn't a believer, you understand the principles of biblical marriage better than most believers!
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Thank you, I am sure it is not true but it is nice to hear.
I am quite concerned by the trend towards people thinking they are doing PM, but it is really closer to concubinage than marriage.

B
 
Isabella said:
I am quite concerned by the trend towards people thinking they are doing PM, but it is really closer to concubinage than marriage.
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I would be very interested in hearing more details from you on that topic, perhaps in a separate post?

ylop
 
If you compare most of what we call marriages today, to what was seen as marriage in the Bible, they're concubinage, not marital relationships.
 
Okay, sola scriptura, do you really want the truth or is your mind already made up? Are you going to search the Scriptures for the truth, or search the Scriptures to prove that which you believe or were taught? There is a HUGE difference. Just because one can search with an open mind always wanting to be corrected in any wrong thinking does not mean they are a reed tossed to and fro. I am not trying to be rude, but this has to be said. I looked at the verses you brought up. NONE of them are saying exactly what you say they are.

sola scriptura said,
In Exodus 21, when a man adds another wife to his family, he is under specific obligations to that wife that are separate from his other wife or wives.
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I don't read anything that remotely indicates that. Verse 10 actually says, "If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights." There is nothing said about specific obligations that are SEPARATE, just that IF HE TAKES ANOTHER, her marital rights are not to be diminished.


sola scriptura said,
All of these scriptures define marriage as between one man and one woman. What scriptures define MARRIAGE differently that that?
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Sounds like you just defined monogamy via the Scriptures, congrats. If this is the case, then what gives a man the right to take another wife when he already has one? Prove it from the Scriptures. I believe the Scriptures teach polygyny is acceptable, but I would like to see how you teach it in light of what you said marriage is.

There is NOTHING in the Scriptures that actually "defines" what polygynous marriage looks like. You can't go by the examples of the people who lived before the Torah/Law was given to Moses at Mount Sinai, because they broke laws that Moses taught. They didn't have the Law at that time and so it wasn't counted as sin to them. Example, Jacob married two sisters, according to Lev 18.18 it is wrong to marry two sisters, but since Jacob lived before the Law was given, he didn't sin, but if we follow his example we would be sinning.

Blessings
 
At the risk of sounding negative, I agree with Cow Fan and Bels. I don't mean to discourage Hadassah, Mary, but perhaps an in depth revision of motives in her heart of hearts would be recommendable. Sometimes it is best to wait, let the waters rest and the sand settle before swimming too deep. I say this with much care and compassion.
 
Hadassah said:
sola scriptura said,
All of these scriptures define marriage as between one man and one woman. What scriptures define MARRIAGE differently that that?
Click to expand...

Sounds like you just defined monogamy via the Scriptures, congrats. If this is the case, then what gives a man the right to take another wife when he already has one? Prove it from the Scriptures. I believe the Scriptures teach polygyny is acceptable, but I would like to see how you teach it in light of what you said marriage is.
Blessings
Click to expand...

I defined Biblical marriage with the scripture verses that talk about marriage. That's really the only way Biblical marriage can be defined. We can't define something by how we feel about it or what we think about it, it has to be defined by God's Word, thus the term Biblical marriage.

Polygyny is when a man is married/in covenant with more than one wife. There is no prohibition of this, and it falls very clearly under the definition of marriage, therefore it is a sensible conclusion. Marriage involving more than one man and one woman has no Biblical definition, example or principle. It is simply your explanation of what you think marriage is. Since you are making an assertion different than what the Bible states, you are obliged to prove your assertion with scripture if you are using the Bible as the ultimate authority.

Also, the the Law actually says that it is wrong to marry a wife's sister "to vex her".

Katie
 
sola scriptura, this is exactly what I am saying...

sola scriptura wrote
Polygyny is when a man is married/in covenant with more than one wife.
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Didn't I quote the actual verse that says this? What is your point by saying it again? Can we not agree on this? Do you have some additional point?

sola scriptura wrote
Also, the the Law actually says that it is wrong to marry a wife's sister "to vex her".
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Federic, thank you for being a little more cordial and kind.

Federic wrote
Mary, but perhaps an in depth revision of motives in her heart of hearts would be recommendable. Sometimes it is best to wait, let the waters rest and the sand settle before swimming too deep.
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First of all, did ANYONE read ALL of what I originally wrote? I do not WANT to do this. I have no choice. God is telling us to do it. I know that is hard for a lot of people to understand, especially when we all try to keep God in our little boxes (I do it, too). But, God MADE Jonah go to Nineveh, he MADE Hosea marry a questionably lady (or two), etc. We are not charging on ahead, we are not even eager to walk this path, in fact we are HIGHLY RESISTANT. DH was in tears and hard crying last night even. We will go forward ONLY when and if he commands. You people should stop judging other peole's hearts and judge with RIGHTEOUS judgment. You have made rash judgments that are unfounded and you should be ashamed of yourselves. You are repelling me and I really needed some support and friends about now. God has taught me a great lesson, thank you.

For the record, I am NOT attracted to women, I never have been, even in the slightest degree. I have been a Bible studying, Holy Spirit filled, follower of Jesus for many years. Until 4 or 5 yrs ago I didn't even know polygyny was not sinful. But even when that became evident through thorough study of the Scriptures, neither my dh nor I WANTED to do it. We STILL don't.

God told us we would be pariah. I guess He wasn't kidding. I thought maybe just with mainstream christians or the "world". Looks like EVERYWHERE...no matter, he has a job for us and we will go where he leads. I do not hold anything against you. I simply say...

GOODBYE. I WILL NOT RESPOND FURTHER.
 
I think swanning off, instead of taking heed and exploring what we are actually saying, rather than what you 'think' we are saying, does not bode well for your possibly being able to cope with the complexity and additional stress and judgement that living PM incurs.

No one said 'do not practice Polygyny' rather people are questioning the framework you have decided to fit your future sisterwife into, including a way which seems at odds to a Biblical idea of marriage. I have already stated on this thread that Polygyny means one man with more than one wife. It does not mean 3 or more people married together to become one, that is YOUR definition. Personally I think it is a defence mechanism and a way for you to take control of this other relationship, so it is most comfortable for you, your words about everything "being open" and no one "left out" makes this quite clear to me, other people may have a different objection to this created framework.
I question whether it would be a healthy situation for any woman being brought into this relationship structure and I question whether it is sustainable in the long run. Either way you look at it, you can take constructive criticism and advice OR you can swan off and continue on this destructive path possibly causing irreparable damage to your marriage and possibly another woman's life.

The choice is yours.
B
 
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