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Gilgamesh

The Duke Of Marshall

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I was going through one of my audio college courses the other day and the professor really got me riled up. He started out saying that in order to more fully understand the scriptures we needed to have a better understanding of the near east culture that surrounded the Hebrews around the time that the scriptures were written. He the went on to go through the Gilgamesh epic and explain it. From then on he kept making the reference that the scriptures were simply taken from the Gilgamesh Epic. From the garden of Eden all the way through Yahushua(Jesus) in the garden of Gathsemene. He based this on the notion that the Gilgamesh epic is older that than the writings of the scriptures. Any thoughts?
 
Forgive me where I generally refer to highly degreed archaeologists and other highly educated folks as morons and refer to some findings as stupid without further qualification. To me this is one of those rare issues that are extremely cut and dried.

C.S. Lewis wrote that it's important to read things from other generations and other centuries because their errors and the errors of the thought of their time will be immediately obvious to you, while things written right now will have many bias's and errors that will be hard to see because they are taken for granted. Christianesque theorism has gone down the same road with the religions of Egypt, now that that is over there is an attack from literately the other direction. That is, there was a time when liberal Christian "historical theorists" told people it was all based on the religions of Egypt, because Egypt is close and was well established by the time of Moses (obviously).

If you represent you're teacher properly (which I trust you do) the arguments for an Egyptian basis for scripture is exactly the same as the arguments for a Sumerian\EoG basis. First, there are similarities, and second the Egyptian\Sumerian works are older (given the Pentateuch is Mosaic, Job would still be older, but that is besides the point). I have not read the entire Epic of Gilgamesh, but of course no one alive today has, its fragmented.

I can't say there is any conceivable similarity between most of the Epic of Gilgamesh and anything in the Genesis account other than that there are floods in both of them. Let's look at just a few things:

1. When the EoG starts everything already exists. Not a creation account.
2. Gilgamesh is a king famous for sleeping with women before they are allowed to be married. Nothing and no one anywhere in Scripture is like that.
3. Enkidu the wild man becomes civilized by visiting a temple prostitute then fights Gilgamesh then becomes his friend. No correlation at all, zero.
4. Way later on Gilgamesh has dreams he cannot understand and Enkidu interprets them. Idiots would say this is like Joseph and Pharaoh, but other than the dream interpreter thing the similarities are zero. Dream interpretation is not a copyrighted concept, every culture I know of has some form of it. Enkidu's interpretations where various good omens, not really useful like Josephs actual interpretations.
5. There is a large section of war between deieties ect and monstor fighting like you would see in Grecio\Roman mythologies, or any pagan mythology, or any modern video game. No scriptural similarities at all for a large section.
6. There is a mention of a great flood of whom no one but Utnapishtim and his wife survived, and they where granted immortality, and the only reason they are even in the story is because Gilgamesh and Enkidu want immortality too. Despite the lack of importance to the EoG itself, this is probably the main reason morons want to say that Scripture is based on the EoG.
7. Lots of blah blah blah about Gilgamesh failing a few tests for immortality, another mention of the great flood, blah blah blah nothing whatsoever to do with anything anywhere in scripture.

This is based on my understanding of the Akkadian Babylonian version. As far as I know the older Babylonian edition is generally similar but highly fragmented. The Sumerian version is what a lot of the stir is about because someone fancied to date it as stupid old. There is no real way to translate Sumerian, its a long dead language without any concordance or translation encyclopedia, there are some ways to get a general idea of this equates to that. But think, we have tonnes of old Greek references and there are disputed translations. I've heard Sumerian translators say things like 'well that guy from 20 years ago thought it meant that, but now we think this." and then go on and belittle the person of 20 years ago for not being mainstream. It's academic either way as to my knowledge there is very little difference between the Sumerian and Babylonian versions, other than that there is another tablet or two in the Sumerian ones. You've heard a run down, if you whern't being led could you see similarity?

So, the serious points of similarity are in dream interpretation and a great flood. Now, more points of similarity could be assumed, but only in the same way I could say "Duke of Marshall is sympathetic to polygamy so obviously he based his thinking on Islam and is secretly a Muslim." Seriously, look at just point's 2 and 3 and ask yourself "¿Are these people like anyone in Scripture?" So, dream interpretation, every culture does it, not a substantial similarity. Great flood, well, almost every culture has one. Tlaloc, by the way, is the Aztec god of the world Before the Flood, if having a flood means one is based on the other then there is a LOT of explaining to do there. The only realistic assumption is that the whole world had a flood, but thats another story. That leaves us with what? There where people in both scripture and the EoG? I'll grant them that similarity. Bah... Seriously. Scripture based on EoG is about as viable as Blood Libel. They all have 0 realism and 90% popular support.

Hopefully that is about what you where looking for in a reply. I would be extremely angry at anyone trying to push that bull. It is one of the heresies of the now, people have tried it in the past and they got beat, so people try to say 'well its really based in this then.' to start it all over again. The EoG basis idea should go out of vogue in about 40-60 years, then there will be something else.

It really bites me is that a lot of it comes from pushing the idea of a localized flood. You may not have heard that in you're course, but thats what secularists have been doing in the last decade or so. They've started dating Sumerian things 6000 or so BC (because they can date whatever they want as long as its popular, this is how archaeology works if the date is before 200B.C. Even when they have calenders to correlate things its NOT straightforward. There are three lines of though as to what the date is in the Aztec calender, and we have a date that correlates directly to our calender {Fall of Tenoticlan, Mexico City}, anything that predates our calender gets very iffy. Once they get to pottery dating it's outright wild speculation, and a LOT is based on pottery and stone dating. Personally I take Jewish dates for anything B.C.E., and our calender agrees with te Jewish one for everything after that.) to attack theists. They do do it to attack theists, there isn't any viable reason for their dates other than that. Then they say there is a localized flood at the time of EoG. So, Sumeria is important to atheists. As I said before, Aztecs had a flood, so if it was localized it was everywhere from Sumeria (Iran) to the Aztec Kingdom (Central America), and I can only assume it travelled both ways. So I agree, there was a localized flood, it only hit the whole world, the moon and stars where entirely unaffected.

There is claim that Ur of the Chadians was a Sumerian city, well, it could have been, but Abraham certainly left it and its culture behind.


Bah, sorry if that was too long, the EoG stuff gets me. Talk to you Later.
 
Tlaloc, I enjoyed the intense logic of your post. There are things in this world I know little about, but it is nice to know someone has this one covered.
 
Welltan,

If my studies can be useful in any way I am grateful to God that I may be of service. Thank you.
 
Tlaloc,

Not to stir up stuff but there was some similarities in other stuff like the code of Hammurabi. Is it wrong of us to suppose that some laws from surrounding areas made sense to the Israelites of their time. Or is it one of those cases were truth is simply truth - pig is unclean don't eat it and that it was in the Bible and the code of Hammurabi makes no difference?

I know I could get fried for this one but for instance I believe that the Genesis creation story is allegorical. I believe that we are here because we are created by God; but the story given as such doesn't make much sense to me in a literal way(even taking into account the JEDP structure). I guess the question I'm asking to anyone is does it matter (respectfully) if some of the epic stories of the OT like the flood are borrowed (Upnapishtim)? What makes me a Christian is defined by salvation in Christ. That I love the Lord and am delivered by him. If it is in the Bible that at the very least I could take it as a lesson - God hates wickedness. There are many things that do bear studying don't get me wrong. I found this site because I was studying and was willing to take the truth no matter if I liked the answer or not. Thankfully you guys are pretty hardcore on your studies and found the information I was seeking pretty quickly - thanks on that btw. In any case I ask these questions in the spirit of seeking knowledge - I don't tend to be the challenge type, occasionally an opposing viewpoint (Devils Advocate isn't a term I care for).

In Christ,
Patrick
 
Well, the bulk of what I'm saying is that there isn't a tangible relationship between EoG and scripture. Does it mater is a question that should not be asked until a tangible relationship is found. What is more of note is that there are many people trying to force a relationship that isn't there. Upnapishtim refers to the name of the person who survived the flood in EoG, but one of the things I was trying to draw out is that all of the cooky stuff that happened in the epic, the flood was only mentioned peripherally and not pertinent to the storyline. Upnapishtim himself was, but the flood wasn't. The only places where EoG and scripture coincide are things which are almost universal to all cultures. So, as you said, truth is simply truth.

The problem arises when very few superficial similarities are used as a basis to exalt a completely distinct work so the level of scripture by a non-sequeter association. That happens a LOT and is a very serious problem, especially when people latch on to those ideas and purvey them. Its dumb down by association, EoG is clearly flawed, but if one belies scripture is based primarily on it then scripture clearly has the same flaws. And as Duke of Martial pointed out, everything from Eden to Jesus is coloured by it. So yes, taking the stance of DoM's professor very much invalidates even the belief that you are saved by Christ. Even the world knows only a fool builds his house on sand, and EoG is very much sand.

As to the code of Hammurabi, it has quite a few similarities to Mosaic law, as one would expect as they are both codes of law. The basic rationale for law at the philosophical level is entirely distinct, but actual practical laws coincide often. Considering Hammurabi is generally conceded to be a contemporary of Abraham its conceivable that Moses knew of his law, though they where in different places in the world and three centuries apart so it isn't necessary or even particularly likely that he did. Either way, that is kind of another topic because Hammurabi's code being known to Moses is much less important because Hammurabi's code is in general quite a logical set for civil order, while EoG is primarily a philosophical work.

As to an allegorical view of Genesis, it is a normal view in a neo-Hellenistic culture. Much of ancient Greco-Romantic culture is back this century, long ages, luck based pantheism, fashionable abortion, the don't question the philosophers attitude, catamites, ect... ect... Christ himself saw fit to come and change the world last time they thought like people do today, and like it or not one of the results of the incarnation was ending the long age philosophy of his time. Either way, that is a longer discussion and somewhat distinct of this, so why don't you start another thread about it.
 
Just my two cents worth here.....

If we assume that Moses wrote the bulk of the Pentateuch, then it is not a stretch in the least to believe that there are influences from the Gilgamesh Epic and from The Code of Hammurabi. After all, Moses was a prince in Egypt, living in the royal household, and according to tradition, was raised as royalty. This would no doubt give him access to information that was already written down, which he may have had access to.

The question you are really asking is, does this diminish inspiration of Scripture? Nope, not in my mind at least. The fact that these other documents recorded these creation events,other stories and laws does not negate the commonly accepted oral tradition of the Jewish people of that day. Remember, at the time, they were basically a nation of slaves, and because of that position, were probably kept dumb and illiterate. Moses wrote these down, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

To use a modern analogy, take the preacher on Sunday morning. Let us assume for the moment that he is preaching under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Does that mean that he cannot reference source material, or use illustrations, or quote other works, authors or even other preachers? Does that mean that he is any LESS inspired because these source materials are used? I would think that you would agree with me that we have no problem accepting that.

Like I said, this is just my two cents worth on an issue I resolved in my heart and mind more than twenty years ago. I hope it helps.

Blessings,

Doc Burkhart
 
Right Doc, I said before that the relationship between Hammurabis code and Mosaic law isn't terribly important even if there is a direct link.

The problem with the Epic of Gilgamesh idea is that there aren't really tangible similarities, at least not an similarities that are common to all or almost all cultures. The idea that the EoG was the basis for scripture exists almost entirely to say that there was a big localized flood in Mesopotamia and never a global one. The idea fails immediately when you realize that even Aztec culture had a global flood concept and a pre flood world, and they are far from Mesopotamia.


EoG itself isn't similar to scriptures, so when people are trying to force the connection and base their theology on EoG instead of scriptures (as was mentioned in the original post) there is a problem. How forced the connections are should make one put their guard up to the idea.
 
I was just going through the Book of Jasher and the Book of Jubilees when I first read your post, and did some cross searching for Gilgamesh. Some scholars believe that Gilgamesh may have very well been Nimrod, nimrod being a semitic word for "rebel". I am usually cautious with non-canonical and possibly pseudographical cites. Disclaimers in place, I proceed! :P

Your professors linking of the story of Gilgamesh with the flood may serve more to prove the validity of scriptures rather than deny it. If Gilgamesh was indeed the son of Cush, the son of Noah, and he was the first to deliberatly reject G-d and set up his own "gods" in his place.

Noah, Shem, and even Abraham (Abram) were around at the time of Gilgamesh whether he was Nimrod or no, so why would it cause your "professor" to smugly feel that it negated the scriptures?

~rusty
 
Well, I think thats an example of the right way of trying to put EoG in context. I've never considered the possible relation to Nimrod before, its worth considering. Thanks Rusty.
 
I will also add my two cents worth, though it will have no direct bearing on what the professor is trying to deal with in the class, but rather is more from a spiritually practical perspective. There are two types of wisdom which operate in the world, one from God and one from selfish motivations originating from the devil. Anything that leads to confusion is not coming from God’s wisdom. In cases such as this, I discount anything that does not line up with scripture, as we know it, to be coming from the demonic, human wisdom of the world. The true, pure wisdom of God will make sense to our spirits and will not confuse but illuminate our minds. It is the understanding and revelatory knowledge that emanates from Godly wisdom that leads us into and keeps us connected to Christ, since He is the source of this wisdom, (i.e., the mind of Christ). Anything else is not worth dealing with in my opinion and I no longer waste my time with it since I have wasted enough of my 51 years chasing after worldly wisdom, in which I am now trying to stop operating. In the school system of the world one will learn all kinds of futile information that will never amount to anything in our eternities, (16 years post high school in my case). In fact we have to clear these things from our minds as we seek after the things of God. This worldly, human wisdom comes from Satan in order to place doubt and unbelief in our minds, which it does so well for so many non-believers who have no hope of eternity. However, for us Christ in us is our hope of glory and we do not need these confusing things. It is this type of worldly knowledge and information that I now, like Paul, find to be rubbish. Again, this will not help get an A in the class, but rather I would say just learn what is necessary to do well in the class and then discard that information along with the report card envelope in file 13 when the class is over, continuing in the knowledge of God that will lead into eternal life in Christ.

As for external influence on the Pentateuch, I would rather believe that since God spoke face to face with Moses, what he wrote would be void of the worldly wisdom that he learned in Egypt and spent so many years in the wilderness getting rid of.

James 3:13-18 -


13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. 17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

John 17:3 -

3“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Numbers 12:6-8 -

6Then He said, “Hear now My words:

If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”
The Holy Bible, New King James Version, (Nashville, Tennessee: Thomas Nelson, Inc.) 1982.

Be blessed,

Dr. Ray
 
I realize this question has been dealt with but i wanted to "chime in" with another theory. I am also facing the same issues with my university course (Ancient History/English). I just covered Gilgamesh in the last semester.

One major point of the unit i was completing was that most ancient cultures appear to have a very complimentary creation myths (where commonalities are easy to see) and a complimentary epic flood/destruction myth caused by dis-satisfaction with creation. This is a huge neon sign pointing to a common origin. Which means... compatible with the bible!

The reason why we have variations in the stories is that they were transfered via an oral tradition relying on the use of formulaic meters and key phrases. The performer did not learn long tracts of text by heart but performed each piece from scratch using his collection of learned repertoire of materials and techniques. This leads to distortion as each rendition is created to suit it's audience, it is also influenced by politics, geography and just the general span of time. These stories were passed down through many generations for hundreds of years before they were ever written down.

Some people believe that the bible is protected from alteration (personally, I'm on the fence) this protection would not apply to hundreds of other texts which have been copied and edited and re-written through thousands of years. They are not simply not reliable as stand alone evidence of historical events but their common threads compliment the archaeological evidence....which points to wide ranging and epic flood/destructive event early in human history. A carefully sourced response may have your professor re-considering his position.
 
I do not believe that the Bible was written to be the final word on everything. God is the final word. If the Bible is worshipped, it becomes an idol and a substitute for knowing and having a personal relationship with God as provided by Christ to many. Scripture becomes much more alive and interesting when it is not self-defeating by closing the door on God talking.

A couple of places even direct thought to not be exlusive

But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
1 Corinthians 7:5-7

But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1 Corinthians 7:11-13

I suppose God get frustrated by his children who sit and spin scriptures around and around in an autistic manner and never place their hand towards God's heart and tell him they love him. In the first chapter of John it says that in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and was God. The Bible was not in the beginning, so the whole idea of the Word of God is not simplistic or closed. Closed makes it easy to hold God in one hand and shuffle truth with the other.
 
Welltan,

I knew you were a smart guy, but I didn't know HOW smart until that last post. ;)

I am grasshopper, you are master.

Blessings
 
We including myself, yourself and others on this forum give God the glory for truth. Though very few or none of us would agree on everything, I totally enjoy reading all the things posted and trying to keep up. I do not doubt that the second chapter of I Corinthians is one of the favorite passages for many of us. We serve a living God.
 
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