Saw that brilliant comment on another site. Had to share. That is all. 
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'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murderer'
- Thread starter FollowingHim
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Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
Why are we worried about gays?
If we're wondering what that means...
So we need to leave the weeds (the gays and lesbians) to Christ and His angels. He will deal with them in His own good time. Till then we are simply supposed to set the example.
Christianity is a relationship not a religion. When we start harassing those who choose not to have a relationship with Christ we tread far too close to the sin of legalism and frequently cross the line. Christ warned us (quoted above) not to do so.
The Apostle Paul summed up the teachings of Christ this way...
So long as the gays and lesbians are outside of our church(es) they are not our problem.
FollowingHim said:Saw that brilliant comment on another site. Had to share. That is all.
Why are we worried about gays?
The Apostle Matthew said:
If we're wondering what that means...
The Apostle Matthew also said:
So we need to leave the weeds (the gays and lesbians) to Christ and His angels. He will deal with them in His own good time. Till then we are simply supposed to set the example.
Christianity is a relationship not a religion. When we start harassing those who choose not to have a relationship with Christ we tread far too close to the sin of legalism and frequently cross the line. Christ warned us (quoted above) not to do so.
The Apostle Paul summed up the teachings of Christ this way...
The Apostle Paul said:
So long as the gays and lesbians are outside of our church(es) they are not our problem.
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
Agree that we shouldn't be too concerned about them. But those of us who have looked deeply into marriage have generally also looked into homosexuality biblically and have an interest in the way this whole social change is panning out. I found that brief statement very well put and potentially useful to pull out at some point. It is ridiculous how people identify as "gay" in our culture as if it's a fundamental condition of themselves, when in reality homosexuality it is simply a behaviour that people choose to do or not - some may have a stronger desire towards it than others, but that doesn't change their fundamental nature.
Agree that we shouldn't be too concerned about them. But those of us who have looked deeply into marriage have generally also looked into homosexuality biblically and have an interest in the way this whole social change is panning out. I found that brief statement very well put and potentially useful to pull out at some point. It is ridiculous how people identify as "gay" in our culture as if it's a fundamental condition of themselves, when in reality homosexuality it is simply a behaviour that people choose to do or not - some may have a stronger desire towards it than others, but that doesn't change their fundamental nature.
On the other hand, if they're outside our churches they ARE our problem - it is our job to try and bring them into the church, as it is our job to try and bring any sinner in.
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
I don't know the context of the quote, but I find it personally meaningful. Inactive mass murderer is the definition of a good chunk of my Christian walk. I went through phases where I wrestled with the idea that other people were... people. I was so consumed by hatred that the only thing that kept me from trying to make the 6:00 news was the fact that by 8:00 I'd be standing face to face with the Master, shoulder to shoulder with my victims.
In due time, I was taught forgiveness, mercy and grace, and delivered of many of my hang-ups, but there is a starting point where all you can do is check your bad behaviour out of fear of divine wrath. The beginning of wisdom, etc.
Although in this case it is a bit different, because I believe that God gives people over to homosexuality because they reject God as Creator. (Or I don't understand Romans 1:18-32). In this case the homosexuality is the response from God, not the original offense.
I don't know the context of the quote, but I find it personally meaningful. Inactive mass murderer is the definition of a good chunk of my Christian walk. I went through phases where I wrestled with the idea that other people were... people. I was so consumed by hatred that the only thing that kept me from trying to make the 6:00 news was the fact that by 8:00 I'd be standing face to face with the Master, shoulder to shoulder with my victims.
In due time, I was taught forgiveness, mercy and grace, and delivered of many of my hang-ups, but there is a starting point where all you can do is check your bad behaviour out of fear of divine wrath. The beginning of wisdom, etc.
Although in this case it is a bit different, because I believe that God gives people over to homosexuality because they reject God as Creator. (Or I don't understand Romans 1:18-32). In this case the homosexuality is the response from God, not the original offense.
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
Although in this case it is a bit different, because I believe that God gives people over to homosexuality because they reject God as Creator. (Or I don't understand Romans 1:18-32). In this case the homosexuality is the response from God, not the original offense.
Slumberfreeze 62 10:46am - Tue, 4 Nov 2014
Although in this case it is a bit different, because I believe that God gives people over to homosexuality because they reject God as Creator. (Or I don't understand Romans 1:18-32). In this case the homosexuality is the response from God, not the original offense.
I would tend to believe that after they are given over to reprobate minds they no longer have any desire for repentance. Whereas a person can give himself over to homosexuality thru peer pressure etc. from which he is given a time of repentance. I posted some of my thoughts on that in the thread on unforgivable sin. If I was better at copying and pasteing I would
uncooperative phone
Although in this case it is a bit different, because I believe that God gives people over to homosexuality because they reject God as Creator. (Or I don't understand Romans 1:18-32). In this case the homosexuality is the response from God, not the original offense.
Slumberfreeze 62 10:46am - Tue, 4 Nov 2014
Although in this case it is a bit different, because I believe that God gives people over to homosexuality because they reject God as Creator. (Or I don't understand Romans 1:18-32). In this case the homosexuality is the response from God, not the original offense.
I would tend to believe that after they are given over to reprobate minds they no longer have any desire for repentance. Whereas a person can give himself over to homosexuality thru peer pressure etc. from which he is given a time of repentance. I posted some of my thoughts on that in the thread on unforgivable sin. If I was better at copying and pasteing I would
uncooperative phone
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
Personally I think that we focus way too much on homosexuality as a church. Is it a sin? Yes. On the flip side homosexuality is talked about all of 7 times in the bible, whereas loving your neighbor is 9 times, tithing is mentioned 36 times, etc, etc. Does that mean we should embrace homosexuality? No, but we should love the people and let God convict their hearts.
From a legal perspective for things like gay marriage, I'm torn. I don't believe that the government really has any business telling people who they should and should not marry (barring protecting the helpless). We're kind of a perfect example of that ourselves. Personally I'd like to see legislation that made allowances for domestic partnerships among any grouping of persons who wish to spend their lives together, for things like sharing insurance and taxes, and leave terms like marriage out of the law books entirely. A justice of the peace can't officiate a covenant relationship between me and a wife, ya know?
Personally I think that we focus way too much on homosexuality as a church. Is it a sin? Yes. On the flip side homosexuality is talked about all of 7 times in the bible, whereas loving your neighbor is 9 times, tithing is mentioned 36 times, etc, etc. Does that mean we should embrace homosexuality? No, but we should love the people and let God convict their hearts.
From a legal perspective for things like gay marriage, I'm torn. I don't believe that the government really has any business telling people who they should and should not marry (barring protecting the helpless). We're kind of a perfect example of that ourselves. Personally I'd like to see legislation that made allowances for domestic partnerships among any grouping of persons who wish to spend their lives together, for things like sharing insurance and taxes, and leave terms like marriage out of the law books entirely. A justice of the peace can't officiate a covenant relationship between me and a wife, ya know?
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
I tend to believe that we need to just get the government out of the marriage business. Marriage is an establishment of religion that predates the US government by about 3000 years. The First Amendment prohibits Congress, and by extension the state legislatures, from making any law respecting an establishment of religion.
UntoldGlory said:
I tend to believe that we need to just get the government out of the marriage business. Marriage is an establishment of religion that predates the US government by about 3000 years. The First Amendment prohibits Congress, and by extension the state legislatures, from making any law respecting an establishment of religion.
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
I tried responding already but it wouldnt go thru...hopefully this does
To untoldglory...didnt civil type unions already exist though? Or am i wrong about that? It seems to me that the same sex agenda folks want to push this into a marriage type issue when to me its not. Equality doesnt translate to equity in this issue. Marriage is something that is ordained of God between 2 or more people and in his presence...but not homesexuality.
I tried responding already but it wouldnt go thru...hopefully this does
To untoldglory...didnt civil type unions already exist though? Or am i wrong about that? It seems to me that the same sex agenda folks want to push this into a marriage type issue when to me its not. Equality doesnt translate to equity in this issue. Marriage is something that is ordained of God between 2 or more people and in his presence...but not homesexuality.
@Wesley - I agree, in a perfect world the government would keep it's nose out of marriage entirely, but the government is terrible at keeping it's nose out of basically anything.
@Starlit - Civil unions have been a thing, yes, but they've never been accepted in all states, nor provided the same protections and benefits as a full marriage. I personally agree with you about what marriage is. However I have to, in good conscious, admit that my only argument against Gay marriage is Biblical, and therefor I do not feel it should be the basis of US law.
That's why I would prefer that terms like marriage, and all that conveys, be kept separate from the law of the land. Heck, there were still about 16 states where it was illegal to have an interracial marriage all the way up until 12 June 1967. Personally I think that's proof the Government is bad at handling marriage and should be fired from it's stewardship.
Basically I don't think my belief in the Bible should prevent Jeff and Ted from sharing Jeff's health insurance from work. On the flip side, Jeff best not try to force my church to perform a wedding between Jeff and Ted as that would violate *our* religious freedoms. In the same way, I don't think anyone should have the right to tell me I can't get medical coverage through my work for a second wife and any future children through her because someone else interprets the Bible differently.
@Starlit - Civil unions have been a thing, yes, but they've never been accepted in all states, nor provided the same protections and benefits as a full marriage. I personally agree with you about what marriage is. However I have to, in good conscious, admit that my only argument against Gay marriage is Biblical, and therefor I do not feel it should be the basis of US law.
That's why I would prefer that terms like marriage, and all that conveys, be kept separate from the law of the land. Heck, there were still about 16 states where it was illegal to have an interracial marriage all the way up until 12 June 1967. Personally I think that's proof the Government is bad at handling marriage and should be fired from it's stewardship.
Basically I don't think my belief in the Bible should prevent Jeff and Ted from sharing Jeff's health insurance from work. On the flip side, Jeff best not try to force my church to perform a wedding between Jeff and Ted as that would violate *our* religious freedoms. In the same way, I don't think anyone should have the right to tell me I can't get medical coverage through my work for a second wife and any future children through her because someone else interprets the Bible differently.
annette1971tx
New Member
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
As a Libertarian, we want govt out of marriage entirely. There should be a contract marriage for those involved be it one man one woman, same sex or Poly. Then each can have a wedding how they see fit as long as it doesn't require a pastor,priest or such to officiate beyond their beliefs.
As a Libertarian, we want govt out of marriage entirely. There should be a contract marriage for those involved be it one man one woman, same sex or Poly. Then each can have a wedding how they see fit as long as it doesn't require a pastor,priest or such to officiate beyond their beliefs.
annette1971tx
New Member
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
I guess it is the conservative wing of libertarian.
I guess it is the conservative wing of libertarian.
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
My own rule of thumb is that when a segment of society keeps doing something and the entire scene strikes me as ridiculous and without rational basis, there's probably something I'm overlooking.
Regarding social changes around marriage, I suspect that many straights will 'take their ball and go home', so to speak, by choosing to not participate in legal marriage. This in turn will de-legitimize the legal and cultural edifice around it to some degree, with those left in the game feeling a bit resentful. The divisions and controversies won't go away, however; they're the new norm.
Samuel, I know that feeling but I don't believe I've heard anyone with personal experience in the matter speak of it that way. I have a close relative whose work has led his gay clients to shift away from same-sex attraction, and even he would not say such things; the required work, while not necessarily complicated, is much deeper than that. The simply-a-choice view is starkly tidy but I don't think it leads to humane outcomes.FollowingHim said:
My own rule of thumb is that when a segment of society keeps doing something and the entire scene strikes me as ridiculous and without rational basis, there's probably something I'm overlooking.
Regarding social changes around marriage, I suspect that many straights will 'take their ball and go home', so to speak, by choosing to not participate in legal marriage. This in turn will de-legitimize the legal and cultural edifice around it to some degree, with those left in the game feeling a bit resentful. The divisions and controversies won't go away, however; they're the new norm.
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
As I understand American politics, the Tea Party promotes economic libertarianism, while tending to avoid social issues where the opinion of the rank and file is more divided between liberal & conservative views. and thus Annette's statement sounds perfectly correct. And on this particular social issue you support a position that is technically libertarian, along with many others in the party, while realising that there are still others in the party who would not agree - which is a great illustration of why the Tea Party avoids social issues like this to focus on the economy where everyone is in agreement.
I'm not sure why you're trying to distance yourself from libertarianism.
"Libertarian" is not a political party. It is the name of a political philosophy. There is also an American party named the Libertarian party, but that's beside the point.Wesley said:
As I understand American politics, the Tea Party promotes economic libertarianism, while tending to avoid social issues where the opinion of the rank and file is more divided between liberal & conservative views. and thus Annette's statement sounds perfectly correct. And on this particular social issue you support a position that is technically libertarian, along with many others in the party, while realising that there are still others in the party who would not agree - which is a great illustration of why the Tea Party avoids social issues like this to focus on the economy where everyone is in agreement.
I'm not sure why you're trying to distance yourself from libertarianism.
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
True, my statement was rather blunt. It is far more complex than "simply a choice", because people feel very strong emotional attractions that do not feel like choices. My point was rather that homosexuality is a physical act, while our culture falsely labels a state of mind as homosexuality. Those who are strongly tempted towards homosexuality are pre-labelled as homosexual before they even do it - which causes great confusion in churches as they decide whether or not to accept "homosexuals", according to the world's dodgy definition of homosexuality.mystic said:
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
Libertarianism per the dictionary definition? No. The libertarian party? Yes. The anarchic definition of libertarianism that is used by many that I have encountered in the libertarian party? Definitely.
I'm not distancing myself from individual liberty. I'm distancing myself from anarchy.
FollowingHim said:
Libertarianism per the dictionary definition? No. The libertarian party? Yes. The anarchic definition of libertarianism that is used by many that I have encountered in the libertarian party? Definitely.
I'm not distancing myself from individual liberty. I'm distancing myself from anarchy.
Re: 'Gay Celibacy' is as meaningful as 'Inactive Mass Murder
The phrase popped into my mind because of the thread subject line.
Inactive Mass Murderer is a great description of government, since the most murders ever, are done by governments. But they do have periods of inactivity from time to time, and sometimes people forget what government does sometimes. A good introductory work on this topic is "Death by Government" by R J Rummel - see http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills .
Government is a gang with a flag, a phantom whereby everyone attempts to live at the expense of someone else. Just because someone titles themselves 'government' and asks you to steal, kill and destroy; it is still murder and theft. But the majority of people are willing to have someone else tell them what to do, under the mental consent of 'authority'.
Limited Government is a mirage, a delusion, since power corrupts and all governments will inevitably seek an increase in their power over time.
If you would like a specific example, the USA has a massive body count behind it, from the plains Indians, to their own citizens in the war between the states, to the Philippines, to the Germans, the Koreans, Iraqis, Afghanis, the list goes on. And all that time, there was a Constitution, which was supposed to limit government, but has utterly failed to do so.
PS Apologies to Samuel for thread derailment however I know you like intellectual pursuit
The phrase popped into my mind because of the thread subject line.
Inactive Mass Murderer is a great description of government, since the most murders ever, are done by governments. But they do have periods of inactivity from time to time, and sometimes people forget what government does sometimes. A good introductory work on this topic is "Death by Government" by R J Rummel - see http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills .
Government is a gang with a flag, a phantom whereby everyone attempts to live at the expense of someone else. Just because someone titles themselves 'government' and asks you to steal, kill and destroy; it is still murder and theft. But the majority of people are willing to have someone else tell them what to do, under the mental consent of 'authority'.
Limited Government is a mirage, a delusion, since power corrupts and all governments will inevitably seek an increase in their power over time.
If you would like a specific example, the USA has a massive body count behind it, from the plains Indians, to their own citizens in the war between the states, to the Philippines, to the Germans, the Koreans, Iraqis, Afghanis, the list goes on. And all that time, there was a Constitution, which was supposed to limit government, but has utterly failed to do so.
PS Apologies to Samuel for thread derailment however I know you like intellectual pursuit