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Forsake not the gathering of yourselves...

JasonTedder

JasonTedder

New Member
I am having a theological dilemma of sorts...

I love God and all my brothers and sisters in Christ. I really want to have a "Church" to attend where I may fellowship with others. But, I am unable to find anywhere within driving distance where I feel comfortable. It seems that here in NC you have to either choose between:

(1) Modern day Pharisees (legalists who cannot follow the Biblical regulations imposed upon Christians in God's Word, but strictly follow man made traditions and dogmatic practice)
or
(2) Anything goes New Age Christians (who follow anything and everything as long as we all get along and feel all "warm & fuzzy" inside)

I really do not mean to convey any anger towards these people, but I am frustrated. Are Biblical Congregations really that "few and far between?"

I know of several Pastors from online who are strong in the Word, and wouldn't dare to preach anything that is not Biblical, but the closest one is 5 hours away.

The Church I grew up in teaches the correct doctrine of Salvation, but they are extreme legalists, consumed with thoughts of money, and racist to some extent. They ignore Jesus' commands on love, charity, and forgiveness, but will quickly shun you if you listen to a different kind of music, don't dress how they do, etc. I am sure you all know the type. I honestly believe that even if I don't agree with their practices, by joining myself with them I am made partaker of their sins or at least condone what they do.

I don't want to wall myself up like a papist monk, but I am having alot of inner turmoil about fellowshipping with these people. In the past I attempted to debate these points with others, but I have seen very few instances where debate had any positive outcome.

So, I guess my question is: Do I compromise and join the pack, just to have fellowship... or do I stand my ground and just worship at home? (Or I guess I could meet up with other Christians online as well)

Thanks,
Jason
 
You've pretty much nailed it, Jason. It's funny, in other words, how so many who rail against "legalism" (and often claim that everything which God Wrote in His Word and said we should keep "forever" has somehow been magically "done away with") will so often demand Complete Submission to Caesar instead.

And when THAT fails, they point to the "forasake not gathering together" as if it meant that was nevertheless preferable to doing what it says in Revelation 18:4 and II Cor. 6:16-17 -- EVEN if it means being "unequally yoked" with pagans, papists, and populist pharisees.

As the march toward a police state continues -- and Clergy Response Teams enforce their IRS-blessed mandate on those fellowships which don't "preach the Party Line" -- small group and home fellowships will expand in importance. Just as in pre-Constantinian Rome, they may be hard for Believers to find, however.

Meanwhile, until the web is completely controlled, another alternative also exists...and it will serve as a bridge to what follows for those who have eyes to see what is coming. On-line fellowships, and internet-based teaching sites, exist, and will provide an option for people to meet and seek to gather together in spirit, even if not in person.

One such option -- among many, obviously -- is the "Talking Torah" room (currently on Paltalk, but soon with an independent server), of which I am a participant and teacher. Feel free to join us if you would like to learn more about Torah-observant Believers (or "ToBe's") in the Messiah who tend to reject, just as He did, the religious "traditions of man" in favor of what Scripture actually says. We meet on every Sabbath in the Paltalk room...just search for "torah" to find us.

Blessings in YHVH,

Mark
 
What did Jesus do? He attended synagogue (house of assembly) even though he did not always agree with what was being taught. Until he was ready to strike out with his own ministry, that is.

SweetLissa
 
Maybe meet up with one or two Christians you can get along with regularly. I have started that and only go to Church once per week instead of three times and find it much more beneficial.

Maybe find one or two strong Christians who you are friends with to meet up and study the Bible, once a week.

This may not be best for you and your situation, I am just offering it as something to consider.
 
sweetlissa said:
What did Jesus do? He attended synagogue (house of assembly) even though he did not always agree with what was being taught. Until he was ready to strike out with his own ministry, that is.

SweetLissa
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I believe he attended them as part of his ministry, did and taught things that offended the people there, and then got nearly killed ;)

He spoke things in the Synagogues and healed people on the Sabbath on the synagogues that offended people

Once a blind man was kicked out of a synagogue for following Jesus after he was healed. Later the blind man worshiped Jesus as God (john 9)

Maybe he attended them when he was younger before he started getting in trouble, I do not really know, little is said about his young adult life in Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. He could have got in a lot of trouble when he was young also ;)
 
This is our experience at church (in the Southeastern US, the Northeastern US and lots of places inbetween...."come as you are....and may we let you know that after the first potluck, you have exactly 6 weeks to get with our program or get lost'. We so proudly call that the 'left boot of fellwoship'!

We've basically given up, here in E. Tn.; Non-conformist thinking and critical examination never seems a 'good fit', and we are tired of searching.
 
JasonTedder said:
The Church I grew up in teaches the correct doctrine of Salvation, but they are extreme legalists, consumed with thoughts of money, and racist to some extent. They ignore Jesus' commands on love, charity, and forgiveness, but will quickly shun you if you listen to a different kind of music, don't dress how they do, etc. Thanks,
Jason
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Could you possibly be referring to Independent Baptists??? Been there, done that, growing up!

Try the below website. While they aren't going to be PM friendly, they will,for the most part, agree with what I assume (from your "sola" signature)are your reformed beliefs. We go to a Reformed church right now... that is until we get excommunicated for our PM beliefs!

http://www.ncfic.org/

Katie
 
sola scriptura wrote "Could you possibly be referring to Independent Baptists??? Been there, done that, growing up!"
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I am an independent Baptist and regret that you are correct in so many cases. However, the term independent is important and too many pastors and churches have forgotten that we are to be dependent on God and His Word and independent of the authority of other institutions when it comes to fulfilling His will. It has become all too common for pastors and churches to conform to a standard derived from someone else's opinion than the Word of God. The churches that I have pastored since 1977 have not been affiliated with or under the authority of any other institution than the Word of God. Independent need not be the same as obnoxious, it is rather a liberty to follow the whole counsel of God.

As believers we are designed to be in fellowship. Jesus created churches and the Word says He loved the church. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. If there is not church (assembly) in your town where you can fellowship in the Spirit, by the Word of God, demonstrating Christ, then start one in your home. Even the Lone Ranger had Tonto, Silver and Scout!
 
John Whitten said:
As believers we are designed to be in fellowship. Jesus created churches and the Word says He loved the church. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. If there is not church (assembly) in your town where you can fellowship in the Spirit, by the Word of God, demonstrating Christ, then start one in your home. Even the Lone Ranger had Tonto, Silver and Scout!
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Brother John, praise the Lord! Yes, you are on right on target!

It is so easy to become bitter, ill-spirited, and angry with those who do not understand or see what we perceive to be the truth. But I suppose we ought to try and think about how Christ sees us. What if he had chosen to throw us out because he saw all of the sin, confusion, and wrong ideas we held to? Ahhhhh....those words we call and sing about, Amazing Grace. By his patience, mercy, and grace he won us and leads us.

We must, if true and really living an loving as Christ did and does, build relationships with even those with whom we do not agree with. Even Christ built a relationship with Judas!

There is no such thing as the lone ranger Christian. The term is contradictory. And neither should anyone take joy or pleasure in being booted out of a fellowship. Sometimes it is not our doctrine that gets us booted but it is our attitude, disrespect for authority. Even if that authority is not totally correct, which often is the case, honor, respect, kindness, graciousness, the fruit of the Spirit ought to be displayed to them no matter what.

If there is no option at all then some honest effort should be made to find some fellowship and leadership somewhere for one's self and family. Ignoring or rejecting the body of Christ and all of those people because of its flaws and failures is not the biblical answer as you so well noted.
 
We must, if true and really living an loving as Christ did and does, build relationships with even those with whom we do not agree with. Even Christ built a relationship with Judas!
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I respect your opinion, and from your posts that I have read, you seem to be well educated in Theology. However, what relationship with Judas are you referring to? From his conversation, Jesus did nothing but rebuke Judas. Judas was the betrayer of Christ, a servant of Satan. Following Christ's example is not fellowshipping with Anti-Christs.

I have no problem with fellowshipping with those who have a different opinion, based on plausible theory. But not where theology is purely a matter of tradition, disregarding the plain teaching of scripture. Therein lies my problem with the "warm & fuzzy" churches who do not care what people believe, as long as we can all get together.

However, the commands of scripture are very clear in this matter; "Be ye not partakers with; "Have no fellowship with; "From such turn away; et.al."
Jesus, when speaking to the Pharisees in Matthew 23, said 4 times in a row, "Woe unto you!" He rebuked them for their hypocrisy and twisting of scripture!

I think we all should follow Christ's example:
When Jesus dealt with the "religious" hypocrites of His day He openly called them liars, hypocrites, whited sepulchres, and of their father the devil. He started his ministry by making a whip and cleaning out the temple. Jesus (and God in general for that matter) loves everyone, and would that all men be saved. But, even Jesus did not fellowship with everyone. Paul even goes so far as to say that any that teaches a different Gospel, "Let him be accursed."
Jesus said in Matthew 15:9, "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Why should I join myself together with those who worship Him in vain?

I tend to be more in agreement with those who talked of starting smaller groups of believers founded strictly on the Bible. Its not like this is the first time in history that this had to be done. Throughout history the church has at times become so corrupted that fixing it from within was impossible, and believers were forced to go outside the camp. I desire fellowship and acceptance, but I will not trade sound doctrine for it.

Maybe to truly follow Christ's example we must at times suffer outside the camp as He did...
"Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach." Hebrews 13:12-13
 
I tend to be more in agreement with those who talked of starting smaller groups of believers founded strictly on the Bible. Its not like this is the first time in history that this had to be done. Throughout history the church has at times become so corrupted that fixing it from within was impossible, and believers were forced to go outside the camp. I desire fellowship and acceptance, but I will not trade sound doctrine for it.
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My point was not to suggest we throw out solid doctrine for the sake of unity. The Ecumenical group has for sure done that. My point is that we need to the best as we can try to be peacemakers and fellowship with those if we can. John used the phrase "throw the baby out with the bathwater." Sometimes people exalt minor truths over major truths.

For example, some monogamy people could remain in their fellowships even with their beliefs if they did not act in disrespect to the existing leaders. Many other truths may be believed, preached, and taught, truths like the gospel, personal holiness, as some leaders would not make that issue per se the litmus test as to whether or not one stays in a fellowship. The practice of it might be, and often is, a breaking point but up until that sometimes the leadership and people are full of enough grace and tolerance to allow for differences in these areas.

Literally we have seen though, some come to this truth and then that is all they know how to talk about. As for me I'd rather go win some people to Christ with a brother who may not be in line with polygyny but does see many of the other great truths of Scripture than align myself with someone who might believe in polygyny but fail to actually live out a gospel centered, grace centered, life with a focus and concern for the lost.

Does that make sense?

What I am trying to say, though maybe not in the best or most accurate way, is that there is a triage so to speak of higher and lower doctrines. I've seen some people come to a position on tv or no tv and then they will not have any fellowship with those that differ with them on that issue. Issues like wine and alcohol are also in that sphere sometimes.

I am not saying when there is serious doctrinal departure, serious in doctrines that are the absolute non-negotiable life or death, heaven or hell issues, that we should ignore those and stay. Furthermore, any church that allows open rebellion, flagrant immoral lifestyles, etc to be tolerated are not safe places either.

Yet I've seen the purists a times, even those among my own theological tradition, get to zealous that they try and make everyone think and believe just like them. When those around them do not believe just like they do they run off under the banner of, come out from among them and they go start a new fellowship. Then others come into that fellowship and then if some new issue arises and a differences comes up everyone begins to repeat that cycle and people split up and depart again. It can in some instances become an ongoing cycle of split and splintering to such a degree that there is so little unity that very little can be done in the work of missions for a local community because the people are so split and splintered they have no organizational power to accomplish the Great Commission of winning the lost, which requires multiple people with multiple talents and gifts of the body working in concert to love and lead others into a relationship with Christ.

That is what I am trying to say.

Indeed sometimes the Lord does lead people out to start home fellowships. In many cases it is good and honorable. I am just trying to urge people not to get the higher and lowers altered. And I am trying to urge people not to become single doctrine Christians where the doctrine of marriage is the highest and sole focus or the highest test for if one can stay or not stay in a fellowship, especially if at this time the Lord has one in a monogamous relationship. Sometimes a person might be able to build relationships with those that are currently leaders and help them to see the truth, but to do that might takes years and if one is patience and walking in grace and love God might use that person or group of persons to help bring to light a truth in what otherwise might be a good fellowship in most areas except in this one area.

So in short, i'm just trying to say, we need to stay balanced and not become focused on just one doctrine to the neglect of others.

I hope that helps to explain better what i mean.

And by the way, thank you for your kind and gracious words about my posts. Keep praying for us here as we labor in the Lord.

Your brother,

Dr. Allen
 
Yes sir, I agree. I have seen many cases where people exalt minor non-essential things above the most important of doctrines.
My argument with Churches of today is not because they do not agree with me on everything. My argument with them is how their behavior impacts how unbelievers view Christ and His Gospel. Even though our shortcomings may not be that we err in doctrine, our behavior itself can turn people away from the Gospel. Legalists who are so foolish to believe that they, "having begun in the Spirit, are now made perfect by the flesh." And the New Agers who believe that tough Theological questions are best answered with a hug. ;)

I only speak on this because of my personal experiences with Christians before I was Saved. I had "Fundamentalists" treating me like a dirty outcast (making me spitefull towards Christianity) and "contemporary" Christians who couldn't expound the simplest of their beliefs (making me believe Christianity was just wives' tales of a sort). Thank God, He made me see that Christianity wasn't about them, it was about Him. But I fear for those who may never see that, or may never have the chance to.

Thank you for your words brother. And if we receive no other blessing, may the Lord allow us to lead more to Him through His Gospel.

Jason
 
[quote="John WhittenI am an independent Baptist and regret that you are correct in so many cases. However, the term independent is important and too many pastors and churches have forgotten that we are to be dependent on God and His Word and independent of the authority of other institutions when it comes to fulfilling His will. [/quote]

John, I humbly apologize for lumping all Independent Baptists into the same stew pot. Your Christ-centered, Biblically based posts are a huge blessing to me, and I would never mean to offend you.

Katie
 
sola scriptura wrote, "I would never mean to offend you."
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Thanks Katie, but I'm not offended in any way. It is unfortunate that people and churches that recognize the importance of sola scriptura, band together to preserve that principle and end up becoming an entity whose will denies the authority of scripture. Doesn't have to be that way, but usually does.

Regarding assembling with like-minded folks, that's a toughie. Seems if we can unite on the "doctrine of Christ" and give each other room for growth on other issues, the Holy Spirit is enabled to teach us the Word of God. Then when we get to heaven we can all see that "_______" was the one right all along. Just fill in the blank. :D

Bottom line is we can survive alone, but we must have loving fellowship with other believers to thrive.
 
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