First Timothy Four, doctrines OF demons

[Joleneakamama]

Since a new thread does make it easier to find or follow what is being discussed, this is to continue the subject change from the other thread here http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/what-do-we-do-with-this-1-timothy-4.13190/ that was discussing the verse in relation to polygyny.

Just for clarity, I post with my account, but use "we" often in the posts. This is because my dear husband hates typing, but loves bible studies, and likes to contribute when I open a theological can of worms, like I did with this comment.

"Not to derail a thread, but doctrines OF demons could also be a reference to those who believe that demons exist. Studying the terms demon and demons, what they used to mean, and where the terms come from is kind of fascinating. Those two words do not appear in the Hebrew scriptures, only in the biblical books translated from the greek."

Anyway, here is what we came up with to start the discussion.

The subject of evil is broad, and there are many words associated with evil in the bible, finding a starting point has been a challenge.
Many christians see God as the source of all things good, and satan as the source of all evil, working out his destruction on mankind with his army of fallen angels/demons.
Many christians view these two beings as being locked in a "battle of the ages" against each other, that spans the bible from the garden of Eden to revelation where satan is finally destroyed. The following is just some of the things we found thought provoking, that caused us to dig deeper into the subject.

In the old testament there is no singular devil, and the words demon and demons do not appear. There are devils (plural) evil spirits, there is satan, and there is God, all of whom appear to do evil.
What we found studying the scriptures was that the first mention of satan is in the story of Balaam, who went to curse Israel, and satan in this case is identified as the angel of the lord.

Now Job is another story. In the book of Job it appears that satan is out to destroy Job, and is doing it all personally, as there is no mention of demons in Job. But when the whole book is read it becomes apparent that whoever this satan is, he is subject to God, as Satan never did anything that God did not authorize, and Job gave God the credit (or blame if you will) for everything that happened to him. Another interesting thing is that God never condemns satan, but does speak against Job's human friends who were critical of him. Then at the end of the book, God endorses Job's testimony, saying that Job spoke rightly concerning Him. So did God do the evil in Job?

There are two accounts in the bible of when King David numbered the children of Israel. Samuel tells us that God was displeased with Israel, and He moved David to number the people, while in second chronicles we read that satan stood up against Israel, and caused David to number the people. It is doubtful any believer would call satan the lord, but in this case, was the lord satan?

The scriptures also tell us that after Saul lost favor with God, that an evil spirit from God troubled him. So then, does God have His own evil spirits? Was David casting out evil spirits by playing his harp? and then where did the evil spirit go when it left Saul?

Earlier I mentioned the terms demon and demons, and that doctrines OF demons could be relating to a belief in their existence. What we found interesting was that long ago, people believed that demons were the souls of men who had died. Some demons were believed to be good and helped men, while others were out to hurt, harm and hinder men. Over time that view changed, and demons came to be seen as strictly evil, with no belief in good demons remaining.

Since God promised in Deut 28 to bless the people if they walked in obedience to His law, and destroy them completely with curses if they did not, the Israelites would likely have been like Job, believing any "evil" that happened to them was God's doing. There is a verse in Amos that says "Shall there be evil in a city, and God hath not done it?" and in Isaiah God told the Israelites repeatedly that He does everything, and creates evil. So, if people believe that satan creates evil, does that make satan another god?

The new testement had not been compiled at the time Timothy wrote his epistle, so his doctrine would have come from the old testament. This is why we have not brought in any new testament references.

These are just some of the question provoking things we found, when we started looking for the source of evil.

This sort of other biblical issue is not something we would ever break fellowship over, but we do think they are interesting to study, and appreciate other people's perspectives on the subject.

JoleneakaMrs.George ...and George, of course!

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Very interesting post. Well laid out. Couple of ?. Where did you all end up with your study? How did you reconcile evil associated with God? Are the evil spirits etc, the same entity as demons just under a different name in a different culture? Did you find or chase the thread of what some call demonology? I've bumped up against it multiple times in various studies but haven't tried to do anything exhaustive. For some reason I've shied away from digging too deep. Have you looked for other reference material like online, Jubilees, Jasher, Josephus, Gad the Seer, Enoch?

 

[Joleneakamama]

Where did you all end up with your study?

Well, we are still studying, but this subject has affected a few changes in our perspective on satan, evil, and even sin. At one point in time we saw satan as an entity opposed to God, as many or even most christians do, but since we could find no place where satan ever defied God, or acted in rebellion against Him, we asked more questions, kept searching for answers.

How did you reconcile evil associated with God?

In some cases it is called correction. The blessings and curses of Duet. twenty-eight. When man gets outside of God's law and will for His creation, He raises up armies to come against His people, He sends plagues. God does this because He loves His children, and corrects them for their own good. According to proverbs, the way of the transgressor is hard. God's law of reaping what you sow for example, would make bad choices (sin choices) unprofitable to His children. God created man with a will of his own. Adam and Eve possessed the ability to sin, and those lusts of the flesh (lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life) were all present in Eve, even before she ate the fruit. The scriptures tell us that "The creature was made subject to vanity" and that it was God's will for us to be made so. So when man sins, man brings destruction or judgment upon himself. Man then either dies in sin, or repents and turns back to God.
Another example of evil associated with God is found in what happened to Jesus. Here you have a just man, who gave God the only thing any of us can give Him. Jesus submitted his will to The Father. What this got him was flogged till his flesh was laid open, and then nailed to a cross to suffer until death. Anyone seeing a man with a whip, flogging a just man, would know this was an evil thing. But yet, this was God's will, and the man with the whip was just one of the tools that God used in completing His plan of salvation. "All things work together for good to them that love The Lord, to the called according to His purpose."

Are the evil spirits etc, the same entity as demons just under a different name in a different culture?

When Jesus walked the earth, the culture of that day looked for an outside source (demons, evil spirits) for an inside problem (an unsubmitted will) Jesus never openly condemned people for believing such things, but those listening to the words of his Father, (Jesus said he ONLY spoke the words of his father) would have heard Him say that "Nothing entering into a man defiles him ....it is what comes out of the heart of a man that defiles him." When you read the next verse Jesus lists every sin, including blaspheme and murder, and says nothing about a devil, demon or satan in any way making the man do them.

The original sin in the garden of Eden was disobedience, like the mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) that Paul writes about that exalts self above the knowlege of God. When one chooses to be willfully disobedient, like King Saul was, God turns them over to a reprobate mind. In Saul's mind he was right, but like God says in Isaiah, He chooses our delusions. Saul was delusional. He had an evil spirit, or rather a prideful, selfish, self serving will, as opposed to a selfless, God serving will. We believe the people at the time of Christ, that had evil spirits that were cast out, were dealing with the same thing that Saul dealt with. David played his harp, and the evil spirit left him. At the time of Christ they layed their hands on people, and the evil spirits left them.
Holy spirit motivates man to serve God, unholy or evil spirit is just man serving anything or anyone else.

Did you find or chase the thread of what some call demonology?

We have read about demonology over the years, and many are completely occupied with spiritual warfare. The view that the old testament presents is that devils, and idols are both created in the hearts and minds of men. Spiritual warfare is not found, but God's judgment is, against those who choose to do evil.

 

[Slumberfreeze]

Lots of interesting avenues to pursue, but I think I'll pull on this thread first:

but doctrines OF demons could also be a reference to those who believe that demons exist.

So if I'm reading this thought correctly, 'demons' do not exist per se, and that the belief in them in light of 1Tim4 is a departure from the faith?

Rather than attempt to lay out the whole case, I'll just bring up my primary difficulty with this interpretation.

Jesus at a couple of point makes some strange proclamations concerning non-existent entities, namely:

The commandment in Matthew 10:8 when He sent out the 12-- Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

In the same breath that He commands them and authorizes them to perform miraculous healings and resurrections, He also commissions them to cast out devils (G1140, the same word as in 1Tim4)

He appears to be treating the idea of the existence of demons with a fair amount of gravity. Which, it might be argued, He was only "meeting the people where they were at", much as a man might beat up and defeat the imaginary monsters in his child's closet to ease their mind, He commands His disciples to war against their oppressive imaginations until such a time as they can be better instructed.

I have great difficulty with even this concept, because if the mere belief in the existence of demons is a departure from the faith, for what reason does Jesus reinforce it by yielding for even a moment to this vain imagination? Jesus is the truth, and would the Truth humor a lie?

And again in Matthew 12:28 He says "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you."

For Jesus to point to His ability to cast out devils (again G1140, as in 1Tim4) when He knows full well they don't exist, as a proof of His representation of the Kingdom of God is to my mind nonsensical.

Because since Jesus does NOT drive out demons by the Spirit of God, (any more than He keeps Cthulhu asleep in R'lyeh by the Spirit of God) then His statement becomes a confession that the Kingdom of God has not come to them.

I'M LATE FOR BREAKFAST.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

So has your studies brought you to the belief that there is no Satan or demons/devils/spirits, it is only a euphemism for a lacking spiritual condition or character flaw? I.e. Demons are the boogeyman in our physical/bodily closet

 

[Slumberfreeze]

Me? No sir. I believe demons are the very real spirits of dead nephilim.

 

[FollowingHim2]

If you have ever had a demon, and had it cast out of you, then you will know that demons are a very real thing, and are very much a separate entity. Same thing if you've ever been attacked by one that is not inside of you but is trying it's hardest to torture you. I have experienced both these things. They are very, very real.
In my mind, trying to say that demons don't exist is going down a dangerous path and only giving them all the encouragement they need.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

Sorry, i should have addressed that to @Joleneakamama

 

[FollowingHim]

@Joleneakamama, by only quoting Old Testament references in your first post you do bias the issue severely, ignoring not only the New Testament verses as mentioned by Slumberfreeze, but also ignoring those Old Testament-period books that were rejected by rabbinical Judaism and are thus not in our current canon. Those books that have a stronger focus on demonology, Enoch and Tobit, have been removed. Enoch explains what demons are and where they originated (the disembodied spirits of the nephilim killed in the flood) - note that multiple copies of Enoch have been found at Qumran, they evidently considered it an important text to preserve, and the Ethiopian church considered this book canonical. Most importantly, Enoch is extensively cited in Jude, and is where the judgement of the angels recorded in 2 Peter 2:4 comes from (this is not recorded in Genesis). Tobit describes active demonic oppression in the pre-Christian period, as well as casting out of demons, quite similar to that described in the Gospels and Acts. Because the references in the current OT are patchy we must consider all relevant sources (ie both NT and apocryphal, provided they do not contradict the accepted texts) in order to build a full understanding of this issue, to ensure we are drawing on the expertise of as many scholars as possible and not just building our own mistaken conclusions on limited information.

Remember that if demons do exist, they'd want you to believe they didn't, so you wouldn't even think to stand in opposition to them...

I do not claim to have perfect knowledge, I never will. I believe the spiritual world is far more complex than we can ever fully comprehend. However, based on Genesis, Jude, 2 Peter and Enoch, it is clear that angels exist, some chose to rebel and produce angel/human hybrid offspring called nephilim, the flood killed the nephilim, and the angels were bound in prison awaiting final judgement. According to the Gospels, Acts and Tobit it is clear that demons exist, and that they are similar to but possibly slightly distinct from evil spirits (Tobit 6:7). They can affect and even speak through people, and they fear judgement - they have personality (e.g. Luke 8:30-33).

However I do agree with you that everything ultimately originates from YHWH, and that this therefore includes evil also, in some way. The demons are also fully subject to Him - which is why Yeshua, and His followers today, have the authority to cast them out. They must have been allowed to exist by YHWH in order to further His purposes, through testing and refining His church. They can only operate where He allows them to. This does not in any way make evil acceptable, quite the opposite, evil is exactly what we are not to do, and exists to test us, which should encourage us even more to choose to do what is good.

 

[NetWatchR]

i got to thinking about this and everyone's well thought out responses and then it hit me. Are we sure we didn't skip Step 1: Verify the translation? If anything this wild and wacky trip has taught me is that what we read may not have been what was written. I am not a linguist of any caliber, I just don't recall if anyone has actually verified that the translation into English is accurate. A misplaced preposition or misunderstood object-subject relation could make all the difference in the world.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Sorry about the delay in responding to the previous comments. Things here have been very busy indeed.

Real responses will be posted as soon as possible.

 

[IshChayil]

Just a colorful addition; in Jewish tradition masturbation creates demons; it's believed the spilled seed fathers demons.
A friend of mine who was studying for his orthodox smecha (ordination) told me this years ago.
The Satan, however, is seen as a servant of G-d created to tempt men.

 

[j_wickey]

I apologize if this response seems a little off topic but after reading through all the comments and original post it seems this is the direction this thread is heading in lieu of the title.

The topic of the origins of evil and its purpose seems, at least to me, to be explained quite in depth. Isa 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:" Vs 7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

So God creates both good and evil. There is nothing aside from Him. Nothing means no-thing. No other beings, no abstract thought, no right and wrong, etc... God does not do "good" things, He defines what "good" is and so on.

As for evil's purpose, I think it is also explained quite well. Lam 3:37 "Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?" Rom 9:17-23 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardenth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonor? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory," (The question Paul ends in seems to be him making a point, not him being unsure of his statement.)

Pharaoh's purpose was God wanted to save Israel, so He created Pharaoh to save them from. As has been stated already in this thread, Satan does not control the forces of evil against God's forces of good. To suggest that would mean that Satan wins most of the time against God (considering there is much more evil than good in the world.) Satan is God's servant in the same way that Pharaoh was God's servant (the book of Job shows this.) It is by no means an excuse to do evil or anything like that. It exists for very precise reasons. For one, it exists to show us what evil is (which is very important considering the Saints will be priests and kings.) Secondly, it exists for vetting purposes. As can be gleaned from prophecy, evil wins until the end. The reason for that is very simple. God is looking for faith. If good won all the time, then you don't need faith. God is looking for those who follow Him even when it hurts too.

 

[IshChayil]

S

Since a new thread does make it easier to find or follow what is being discussed, this is to continue the subject change from the other thread here http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/what-do-we-do-with-this-1-timothy-4.13190/ that was discussing the verse in relation to polygyny.

Just for clarity, I post with my account, but use "we" often in the posts. This is because my dear husband hates typing, but loves bible studies, and likes to contribute when I open a theological can of worms, like I did with this comment.

"Not to derail a thread, but doctrines OF demons could also be a reference to those who believe that demons exist. Studying the terms demon and demons, what they used to mean, and where the terms come from is kind of fascinating. Those two words do not appear in the Hebrew scriptures, only in the biblical books translated from the greek."

Anyway, here is what we came up with to start the discussion.

The subject of evil is broad, and there are many words associated with evil in the bible, finding a starting point has been a challenge.
Many christians see God as the source of all things good, and satan as the source of all evil, working out his destruction on mankind with his army of fallen angels/demons.
Many christians view these two beings as being locked in a "battle of the ages" against each other, that spans the bible from the garden of Eden to revelation where satan is finally destroyed. The following is just some of the things we found thought provoking, that caused us to dig deeper into the subject.

In the old testament there is no singular devil, and the words demon and demons do not appear. There are devils (plural) evil spirits, there is satan, and there is God, all of whom appear to do evil.
What we found studying the scriptures was that the first mention of satan is in the story of Balaam, who went to curse Israel, and satan in this case is identified as the angel of the lord.

Now Job is another story. In the book of Job it appears that satan is out to destroy Job, and is doing it all personally, as there is no mention of demons in Job. But when the whole book is read it becomes apparent that whoever this satan is, he is subject to God, as Satan never did anything that God did not authorize, and Job gave God the credit (or blame if you will) for everything that happened to him. Another interesting thing is that God never condemns satan, but does speak against Job's human friends who were critical of him. Then at the end of the book, God endorses Job's testimony, saying that Job spoke rightly concerning Him. So did God do the evil in Job?

There are two accounts in the bible of when King David numbered the children of Israel. Samuel tells us that God was displeased with Israel, and He moved David to number the people, while in second chronicles we read that satan stood up against Israel, and caused David to number the people. It is doubtful any believer would call satan the lord, but in this case, was the lord satan?

The scriptures also tell us that after Saul lost favor with God, that an evil spirit from God troubled him. So then, does God have His own evil spirits? Was David casting out evil spirits by playing his harp? and then where did the evil spirit go when it left Saul?

Earlier I mentioned the terms demon and demons, and that doctrines OF demons could be relating to a belief in their existence. What we found interesting was that long ago, people believed that demons were the souls of men who had died. Some demons were believed to be good and helped men, while others were out to hurt, harm and hinder men. Over time that view changed, and demons came to be seen as strictly evil, with no belief in good demons remaining.

Since God promised in Deut 28 to bless the people if they walked in obedience to His law, and destroy them completely with curses if they did not, the Israelites would likely have been like Job, believing any "evil" that happened to them was God's doing. There is a verse in Amos that says "Shall there be evil in a city, and God hath not done it?" and in Isaiah God told the Israelites repeatedly that He does everything, and creates evil. So, if people believe that satan creates evil, does that make satan another god?

The new testement had not been compiled at the time Timothy wrote his epistle, so his doctrine would have come from the old testament. This is why we have not brought in any new testament references.

These are just some of the question provoking things we found, when we started looking for the source of evil.

This sort of other biblical issue is not something we would ever break fellowship over, but we do think they are interesting to study, and appreciate other people's perspectives on the subject.

JoleneakaMrs.George ...and George, of course!

strange I replied to something like this a few days ago but can't find my post anywhere.
Maybe I accidentally deleted it?

So I'm only chiming in to one thing you said:
"Not to derail a thread, but doctrines OF demons could also be a reference to those who believe that demons exist. Studying the terms demon and demons, what they used to mean, and where the terms come from is kind of fascinating. Those two words do not appear in the Hebrew scriptures, only in the biblical books translated from the greek."

Anyway here is demon mentioned in the original Hebrew. This verse came to mind immediately because it was in my bar mitzvah portion:
יִזְבְּח֗וּ לַשֵּׁדִים֙ לֹ֣א אֱלֹ֔הַ אֱלֹהִ֖ים לֹ֣א יְדָע֑וּם חֲדָשִׁים֙ מִקָּרֹ֣ב בָּ֔אוּ לֹ֥א שְׂעָר֖וּם אֲבֹתֵיכֶֽם׃
Deuteronomy 32:17
It says "they sacrificed to Shaydim (demons), non-gods, whom they did not know, new ones who just came near, whom your fathers were not (even) aquainted"
The Targum Onkelos (Classical Aramaic translation of the Torah) says in Aramaic שֵׁדִין (sheydiyn = demons)
The Greek LXX (Septuagint) gives us δαιμονίοις (daimonious) you can guess that what that one is.
So the original Hebrew says demons, the Aramaic and Greek classical translations also say 'demons'.
I think at this point it's head-in-the-sand to deny their existence.

 

[The Revolting Man]

Evil doesn't exist. It is simply an absence of God like cold is an absence of he's or dark is an absence of light. There is no physical, corporeal thing that is cold or dark. So God didn't "create" evil. Its just the vacuum that occurs when He withdraws His Presence.

 

[cubanito]

Since a new thread does make it easier to find or follow what is being discussed, this is to continue the subject change from the other thread here http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/what-do-we-do-with-this-1-timothy-4.13190/ that was discussing the verse in relation to polygyny.

Just for clarity, I post with my account, but use "we" often in the posts. This is because my dear husband hates typing, but loves bible studies, and likes to contribute when I open a theological can of worms, like I did with this comment.

"Not to derail a thread, but doctrines OF demons could also be a reference to those who believe that demons exist. Studying the terms demon and demons, what they used to mean, and where the terms come from is kind of fascinating. Those two words do not appear in the Hebrew scriptures, only in the biblical books translated from the greek."

Anyway, here is what we came up with to start the discussion.

The subject of evil is broad, and there are many words associated with evil in the bible, finding a starting point has been a challenge.
Many christians see God as the source of all things good, and satan as the source of all evil, working out his destruction on mankind with his army of fallen angels/demons.
Many christians view these two beings as being locked in a "battle of the ages" against each other, that spans the bible from the garden of Eden to revelation where satan is finally destroyed. The following is just some of the things we found thought provoking, that caused us to dig deeper into the subject.

In the old testament there is no singular devil, and the words demon and demons do not appear. There are devils (plural) evil spirits, there is satan, and there is God, all of whom appear to do evil.
What we found studying the scriptures was that the first mention of satan is in the story of Balaam, who went to curse Israel, and satan in this case is identified as the angel of the lord.

Now Job is another story. In the book of Job it appears that satan is out to destroy Job, and is doing it all personally, as there is no mention of demons in Job. But when the whole book is read it becomes apparent that whoever this satan is, he is subject to God, as Satan never did anything that God did not authorize, and Job gave God the credit (or blame if you will) for everything that happened to him. Another interesting thing is that God never condemns satan, but does speak against Job's human friends who were critical of him. Then at the end of the book, God endorses Job's testimony, saying that Job spoke rightly concerning Him. So did God do the evil in Job?

There are two accounts in the bible of when King David numbered the children of Israel. Samuel tells us that God was displeased with Israel, and He moved David to number the people, while in second chronicles we read that satan stood up against Israel, and caused David to number the people. It is doubtful any believer would call satan the lord, but in this case, was the lord satan?

The scriptures also tell us that after Saul lost favor with God, that an evil spirit from God troubled him. So then, does God have His own evil spirits? Was David casting out evil spirits by playing his harp? and then where did the evil spirit go when it left Saul?

Earlier I mentioned the terms demon and demons, and that doctrines OF demons could be relating to a belief in their existence. What we found interesting was that long ago, people believed that demons were the souls of men who had died. Some demons were believed to be good and helped men, while others were out to hurt, harm and hinder men. Over time that view changed, and demons came to be seen as strictly evil, with no belief in good demons remaining.

Since God promised in Deut 28 to bless the people if they walked in obedience to His law, and destroy them completely with curses if they did not, the Israelites would likely have been like Job, believing any "evil" that happened to them was God's doing. There is a verse in Amos that says "Shall there be evil in a city, and God hath not done it?" and in Isaiah God told the Israelites repeatedly that He does everything, and creates evil. So, if people believe that satan creates evil, does that make satan another god?

The new testement had not been compiled at the time Timothy wrote his epistle, so his doctrine would have come from the old testament. This is why we have not brought in any new testament references.

These are just some of the question provoking things we found, when we started looking for the source of evil.

This sort of other biblical issue is not something we would ever break fellowship over, but we do think they are interesting to study, and appreciate other people's perspectives on the subject.

JoleneakaMrs.George ...and George, of course!

Satan is a created being and has a purpuse. He is quality control, the tempter or tester. In Job you can see it, God allows lucy to do his / her testing.
How do you know something is good without testing it?
Something to remember is the principle of Eze14. If we harbor stumbling blocks in our hearts, we will stay deceived, God even makes sure of it because, there is no love for the truth. Sadly most choose comfort zone over hard truth. Our attitudes / perspectives are a reflection of our hearts.

 

[Joleneakamama]

I apologize if this response seems a little off topic but after reading through all the comments and original post it seems this is the direction this thread is heading in lieu of the title.

Not off topic at all, and the kind of stuff we have found thought provoking, and faith affirming. Thanks!

 

[Joleneakamama]

Our attitudes / perspectives are a reflection of our hearts.

Yes! And Jesus said that the heart was also the source of all sins, (At least I didn't see any He missed naming)

 

[Joleneakamama]

Now to try and answer some of the other members comments. I started a response weeks ago, but it has been uncommonly busy, and I have many projects I'm trying to keep up with.

To begin with let me state for the record that we are not interested in attempting to convince anyone that we are right, and they are wrong. After all, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
We are also not interested in trying to teach (especially speaking for myself here, as I am a woman) people who only ask more questions, without dealing with the questions we have already put forth for discussion.

In the down time between our last post and this one, I have read and pondered this topic, and contemplated a response.
I have also had an interesting and relevant conversation with a neighbor. I'll share the details a bit later in this post.

We started with the old testament because we believe it is the foundation of christianity, shows us the real nature of God, and outlines our duties to Him, and each other, as believers. We also believe there was a major shift in perception between the time of the old testament, and the new, and we doubt that the change was from YHWH Himself.
If YHWH as He revealed Himself to Moses does not resemble the God most Christians would describe, which account or perception should we believe?

These are issues I had to work through years ago, as I dealt with the differences in doctrine between the LDS church I was raised in, and the plain teachings of the bible. It was the spirit of "Come, let us reason together" that led me (or rather us ) to the understanding we now share.

I have asked my Mormon family members to explain how this war in heaven, that they believe happened in the pre-existence (which is itself an oxymoron) could be the one described in revelation, since revelation plainly states that John was to write the vision, because the events depicted in it must shortly come to pass? One uncle had an answer, but I still think it lacked a biblical foundation. They believe that Satan and Jesus were brothers, which is pretty close to what the paper on demonology I found online puts forth about the origin of demons. (It echos the spirits of dead nephilim belief, and a fallen angel origin for satan, I will try and post more about that later)

Now there are other men who have asked questions, and done loads of research both in the bible, and studying the origins of various doctrines relating to evil, so we really don't want to try and cover such a huge subject comprehensively, and we really don't want to just argue about doctrine.
A question on deciding which extra biblical books one should consider as scripture comes to mind, and I asked all my Mormon relatives the same question (because they have other "scriptures" too). We have not yet reached the end of the prophecies found in Ezekiel, Daniel, Obadiah, and other biblical prophets, why do we need another book, especially since the beautiful continuity found in the bible is rarely continued or even found in the other volumes they call scripture? Mormons read into the bible their ideas about God, and Christians can do the same. It is only when you really dig in and let the way a word is used in the bible define it, that you actually understand what it means.

It was understanding the faults and unbiblical nature of Mormon doctrine, that opened our eyes to what we see now in other denominations doctrines.

Ecclesiastes states that "Fearing YHWH and keeping His commands is the whole duty of man." Is this to be believed, or do we also have a moral obligation to fight against hordes of demons sent by satan?
Maybe I should share that my Mormon family believed in evil spirits, and that when I was a child we would go to my grandparents so my aunt who was spiritually sensitive could help us in casting them out? Or maybe I should share how I experienced deliverance only ten years ago? Or maybe it would be better to stick with something less subjective then my experiences, since my experiences are no authority to get doctrine from, and the bible, especially the old testament is!!

One article I read is this one, talking about extreme beliefs, and it makes some excellent points. Please read it (if or when time allows) and then contemplate what real benefit there is to believing that the almighty creator has an evil opponent out there, that by most accounts is dragging more poor souls to destruction then are finding the straight and narrow?

To slumberfreeze. Did you notice who put forth the doctrine that there even is a "Prince of the devils?'" Beelzebub was the name of the Babylonian's dung God. Given that Jesus warned against the doctrines of the Pharisees and Saducees what reason would a believer have for giving their teachings credibility?

Now I said I would tell you more about the conversation with the neighbor. He shared with me how when he was a younger man he had vivid dreams, that would come true. He talked to the pastor at the church he was attending, seeking help understanding these experiences. After talking with the pastor, the pastor concluded that he (our neighbor) was a devil worshipper, and refused him baptism, or other help!

Evil doesn't exist. It is simply an absence of God like cold is an absence of he's or dark is an absence of light. There is no physical, corporeal thing that is cold or dark. So God didn't "create" evil. Its just the vacuum that occurs when He withdraws His Presence.

The curses promised in Deut certainly sound more deliberate, and active then simply withdrawing His presence, and J_wickey already pointed out the verses in Isaiah where YHWH says he creates evil. Certainly there could be something lost in translation, but it does not in any way appear to be in conflict with the rest of the scripture, to give YHWH credit for creating evil. Job did.

Now on demonology. I looked at a paper online teaching about demons, and the importance of "knowing the enemy" so to speak. It claimed that there are three forces at work in the world today, God power, man power, and demon power, and we MUST understand all three. There was then a list of "facts" about Satan aka lucifer (but they use all terms relating to evil interchangably!) Some of the verses they are using to establish their satan facts are actually discussing mortal men, like the kings of babylon and tyre.
Since there is no record anywhere in the scripture of satan going against the will of God, it is far more likely that he is just a tool (as J_wickey stated) that YHWH uses for His purposes. Think about it for a second, without the biases you were raised with. Did YHWH promise death and curses for transgression of His law? YES HE DID! All sin is by definition transgression of His law. Notice what the paper on Demonology says about demons...their names for example? Every demon's name is just a reflection of a heart that needs adjusting! Isn't it possible that demons are just part of the curses that YHWH promised for us not keeping His law, and that staying on the right side of the line (Fear YHWH and keep His commandments) would eliminate any and all issues with them?
I have read material from many places, including a church that ministers deliverance. One of their booklets was titled "Deliverance, a walk not an event" and another was "Holding your deliverance" why? Because if your heart and actions are not in keeping with YHWH's law and righteousness, you are constantly "earning" their presence in your life.

Evil is still very evil, but Jesus said it's origin is the hearts of men. Hearts that do not have His law written on them. When you have a desire to do right, people murdering others for their own personal gain, is beyond comprehension.....but that is what evil men do.....daily. Once you wrap your head around YHWH being in complete control of evil too, you see that the american president, and other world players are, like pharaoh of old, just doing YHWH's will. It would be a waste of effort to fight against what is happening, He is moving things right along toward that battle of gog and magog, and somewhere along the timeline babylon goes down, for good and forever! (jump for joy and shout hallelujahs!!!)

So the original Hebrew says demons, the Aramaic and Greek classical translations also say 'demons'.
I think at this point it's head-in-the-sand to deny their existence.

The scripture also has names of false gods, their names being there does not make them real, but real or not they do have a destructive influence on people who choose to believe in them. What matters in understanding the scripture is what was believed by the people of that time, and also what the author of those words meant by what he wrote. That is what everyone else after them works at discerning. If the people of Timothy's time believed that demons were the spirits of dead men, and that some were good and helped man, while others were evil and worked to hurt man, and these concepts are NOT biblical, then Timothy might have been trying to communicate that belief in that concept of demons was without a scriptural foundation......and that people of our time (in that latter day apostasy) were going to believe in them. Check those scripture references given in a demonology curriculum like this one for context and accuracy. Do the verses actually say what they claim? Then ask yourself what satan does that man cannot do just as well without him? Man's heart and will is evil enough alone!

Even this reply was written with many interruptions. I hope it is not too hard to follow.

 

[Joleneakamama]

Now to try and answer some of the other members comments. I started a response weeks ago, but it has been uncommonly busy, and I have many projects I'm trying to keep up with.

To begin with let me state for the record that we are not interested in attempting to convince anyone that we are right, and they are wrong. After all, "A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
We are also not interested in trying to teach (especially speaking for myself here, as I am a woman) people who only ask more questions, without dealing with the questions we have already put forth for discussion.

In the down time between our last post and this one, I have read and pondered this topic, and contemplated a response.
I have also had an interesting and relevant conversation with a neighbor. I'll share the details a bit later in this post.

We started with the old testament because we believe it is the foundation of christianity, shows us the real nature of God, and outlines our duties to Him, and each other, as believers. We also believe there was a major shift in perception between the time of the old testament, and the new, and we doubt that the change was from YHWH Himself.
If YHWH as He revealed Himself to Moses does not resemble the God most Christians would describe, which account or perception should we believe?

These are issues I had to work through years ago, as I dealt with the differences in doctrine between the LDS church I was raised in, and the plain teachings of the bible. It was the spirit of "Come, let us reason together" that led me (or rather us ) to the understanding we now share.

I have asked my Mormon family members to explain how this war in heaven, that they believe happened in the pre-existence (which is itself an oxymoron) could be the one described in revelation, since revelation plainly states that John was to write the vision, because the events depicted in it must shortly come to pass? One uncle had an answer, but I still think it lacked a biblical foundation. They believe that Satan and Jesus were brothers, which is pretty close to what the paper on demonology I found online puts forth about the origin of demons. (It echos the spirits of dead nephilim belief, and a fallen angel origin for satan, I will try and post more about that later)

Now there are other men who have asked questions, and done loads of research both in the bible, and studying the origins of various doctrines relating to evil, so we really don't want to try and cover such a huge subject comprehensively, and we really don't want to just argue about doctrine.
A question on deciding which extra biblical books one should consider as scripture comes to mind, and I asked all my Mormon relatives the same question (because they have other "scriptures" too). We have not yet reached the end of the prophecies found in Ezekiel, Daniel, Obadiah, and other biblical prophets, why do we need another book, especially since the beautiful continuity found in the bible is rarely continued or even found in the other volumes they call scripture? Mormons read into the bible their ideas about God, and Christians can do the same. It is only when you really dig in and let the way a word is used in the bible define it, that you actually understand what it means.

It was understanding the faults and unbiblical nature of Mormon doctrine, that opened our eyes to what we see now in other denominations doctrines.

Ecclesiastes states that "Fearing YHWH and keeping His commands is the whole duty of man." Is this to be believed, or do we also have a moral obligation to fight against hordes of demons sent by satan?
Maybe I should share that my Mormon family believed in evil spirits, and that when I was a child we would go to my grandparents so my aunt who was spiritually sensitive could help us in casting them out? Or maybe I should share how I experienced deliverance only ten years ago? Or maybe it would be better to stick with something less subjective then my experiences, since my experiences are no authority to get doctrine from, and the bible, especially the old testament is!!

One article I read is this one, talking about extreme beliefs, and it makes some excellent points. Please read it (if or when time allows) and then contemplate what real benefit there is to believing that the almighty creator has an evil opponent out there, that by most accounts is dragging more poor souls to destruction then are finding the straight and narrow?

To slumberfreeze. Did you notice who put forth the doctrine that there even is a "Prince of the devils?'" Beelzebub was the name of the Babylonian's dung God. Given that Jesus warned against the doctrines of the Pharisees and Saducees what reason would a believer have for giving their teachings credibility?

Now I said I would tell you more about the conversation with the neighbor. He shared with me how when he was a younger man he had vivid dreams, that would come true. He talked to the pastor at the church he was attending, seeking help understanding these experiences. After talking with the pastor, the pastor concluded that he (our neighbor) was a devil worshipper, and refused him baptism, or other help!

Evil doesn't exist. It is simply an absence of God like cold is an absence of he's or dark is an absence of light. There is no physical, corporeal thing that is cold or dark. So God didn't "create" evil. Its just the vacuum that occurs when He withdraws His Presence.

The curses promised in Deut certainly sound more deliberate, and active then simply withdrawing His presence, and J_wickey already pointed out the verses in Isaiah where YHWH says he creates evil. Certainly there could be something lost in translation, but it does not in any way appear to be in conflict with the rest of the scripture, to give YHWH credit for creating evil. Job did.

Now on demonology. I looked at a paper online teaching about demons, and the importance of "knowing the enemy" so to speak. It claimed that there are three forces at work in the world today, God power, man power, and demon power, and we MUST understand all three. There was then a list of "facts" about Satan aka lucifer (but they use all terms relating to evil interchangably!) Some of the verses they are using to establish their satan facts are actually discussing mortal men, like the kings of babylon and tyre.
Since there is no record anywhere in the scripture of satan going against the will of God, it is far more likely that he is just a tool (as J_wickey stated) that YHWH uses for His purposes. Think about it for a second, without the biases you were raised with. Did YHWH promise death and curses for transgression of His law? YES HE DID! All sin is by definition transgression of His law. Notice what the paper on Demonology says about demons...their names for example? Every demon's name is just a reflection of a heart that needs adjusting! Isn't it possible that demons are just part of the curses that YHWH promised for us not keeping His law, and that staying on the right side of the line (Fear YHWH and keep His commandments) would eliminate any and all issues with them?
I have read material from many places, including a church that ministers deliverance. One of their booklets was titled "Deliverance, a walk not an event" and another was "Holding your deliverance" why? Because if your heart and actions are not in keeping with YHWH's law and righteousness, you are constantly "earning" their presence in your life.

Evil is still very evil, but Jesus said it's origin is the hearts of men. Hearts that do not have His law written on them. When you have a desire to do right, people murdering others for their own personal gain, is beyond comprehension.....but that is what evil men do.....daily. Once you wrap your head around YHWH being in complete control of evil too, you see that the american president, and other world players are, like pharaoh of old, just doing YHWH's will. It would be a waste of effort to fight against what is happening, He is moving things right along toward that battle of gog and magog, and somewhere along the timeline babylon goes down, for good and forever! (jump for joy and shout hallelujahs!!!)

So the original Hebrew says demons, the Aramaic and Greek classical translations also say 'demons'.
I think at this point it's head-in-the-sand to deny their existence.

The scripture also has names of false gods, their names being there does not make them real, but real or not they do have a destructive influence on people who choose to believe in them. What matters in understanding the scripture is what was believed by the people of that time, and also what the author of those words meant by what he wrote. That is what everyone else after them works at discerning. If the people of Timothy's time believed that demons were the spirits of dead men, and that some were good and helped man, while others were evil and worked to hurt man, and these concepts are NOT biblical, then Timothy might have been trying to communicate that belief in that concept of demons was without a scriptural foundation......and that people of our time (in that latter day apostasy) were going to believe in them. Check those scripture references given in a demonology curriculum like this one for context and accuracy. Do the verses actually say what they claim? Then ask yourself what satan does that man cannot do just as well without him? Man's heart and will is evil enough alone!

Even this reply was written with many interruptions. I hope it is not too hard to follow.