Do God use both good and evil to realize His plan?

[pebble]

First, the good...

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose.

There's a rather lengthy explanation of it here ==> http://www.mbseminary.edu/files/downloa ... d=12815136

but here's the gist...

Romans 8:28 is not about God fitting all things together into a pattern for our benefit. It is rather about God and those who love God working as partners, "working together" to bring about good in all situations.

According to this, we have to make ourselves available for God as a conduit for positive intervention in the life of others. Easy to understand and I agree with it.


And then the evil...

This is just an example for illustrative purposes, which I have read somewhere.

Satan knows that the Jews have a key role before the end times. So he tried to erase them from the picture, perhaps hoping to sabotage the second coming. His tool for his eradication program was Hitler. However, instead of preventing the end times from coming, their heinous acts expedited the birth of modern Israel, a fulfilment of one of the many prophesies regarding the period immediately before the end times.

Interestingly, Hitler applied for and was rejected by a Vienna art school before he became what he was. If he was accepted, would he become the mass murderer that he was who served Satan? Was he even aware that he was simply another tool in Satan's war against God?


SO, with free will and all, I understand how we choose to be on the side of God and serve Him and work towards the realization of His plan. But for people who choose to work on the other side, knowingly or in ignorance, and have their evil actions "twisted" to ultimately serve God's purpose and fit His overall plan, isn't that like a bit of cheating on the free will thing? Or does God simply shows us that there's simply no use in choosing the side against Him?

On more practical and mundane matters, do God influence the decisions of others that affects us? Like in promotions or people giving us money. These people may not believe that their actions were influenced by a Higher Being (they may even have ulterior motives for their actions) but their actions do have a profound effect on the faith of those who benefited (me :mrgreen: ).

 

[cnystrom]

It may seem like a paradox but, despite free will, God DOES use the evil of others to accomplish his will.

This is easily seen in scripture. For example, the story of Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers and then they lied and told his father he was dead. That was pretty evil. But God uses this event to start a chain of events that basically saves the whole known world at that time from hunger and starvation.

Joseph himself realizes this and absolves his brothers of guilt in Genesis 50:20 "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives."

Does God influence the decisions of others that affects us? Yes, I believe he does whether they realize it, or not.

 

[pebble]

You know, sir, I'm going by faith here 'cause I can't still get my head around the Joseph story.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the sequence to the story seems to be like this==> Joseph thrown in well ==> Joseph slave in Egypt ==> Joseph saves Israel ==> All Israel in Egypt ==> Israel enslaved ==> Moses period ==> promised land. In addition, Joseph's lineage are key players in prophesies and the revelations.

And it all began because of petty jealousy and sibling rivalry and a father's favouritism.

BTW, is favouritism biblically right? Like it was okay to favor one son above the others?

 

[cnystrom]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the sequence to the story seems to be like this==> Joseph thrown in well ==> Joseph slave in Egypt ==> Joseph saves Israel ==> All Israel in Egypt ==> Israel enslaved ==> Moses period ==> promised land. In addition, Joseph's lineage are key players in prophesies and the revelations.

You got it.

And it all began because of petty jealousy and sibling rivalry and a father's favouritism.

Yes.

BTW, is favouritism biblically right? Like it was okay to favor one son above the others?

I do not know of a specific verse that calls it a sin, so I do not think I could bind it to others, but from the story, if common sense did not already tell you, that it is not a good idea.

One thing I do is tell all of my kids and my wife that they are my favorite. It is sort of a running joke.

 

[CecilW]

BTW, is favouritism biblically right? Like it was okay to favor one son above the others?

A common objection to PM is that "in every case of reported PM, there was strife in the family resulting from that PM."

The statement isn't accurate. There are many plural families regarding whom no strife is recorded. But for those regarding which the strife part is relevant, I have personally observed that favoritism was also at play.

Favoritism seems to be a far more credible cause of the strife, as it explains strife not only between wives, but also between offspring.

God seems to have a degree of favoritism built into the offspring issue via the double-portion birthright going to the eldest male, but it comes with increased responsibility as well, so doesn't seem to really count as favoritism.

My conclusion is that Favoritism isn't much legislated in the moral code, and isn't a salvation issue, BUT it sure is inadvisable.

Ummmm, my Dad used to tell me that I was his favorite eldest son ...

 

[pebble]

Yep, I've read that the OT is simply a narration of events as they happened, not a logbook of actions we can follow. The stories do provide lessons, in which we can base our actions.

However, sirs, there is still the glaring fact that Jacob's act of favoring Joseph above his brothers triggered significant events that affected and is affecting humanity as a whole. If Jacob was a politically-correct type, was the OT written differently? Is God's over-all plan somehow affected?

If the evil acts of people somehow assisted in the realization of God's plan, were they still sinning?

 

[Courting4Life]

If Jacob was a politically-correct type, was the OT written differently?

Is God's over-all plan somehow affected?

If the evil acts of people somehow assisted in the realization of God's plan, were they still sinning?

I may not be understanding your questions clearly.
-Are you asking if Jacob influenced the scribes accounts to possibly be untrue?
-Is this in reference to the potential answer to the first question, which I am not clear on?
-Yes. God may be glorified by anything, even a man's sinful act. But man does not walk in agreement with God by acting against God's commands.

 

[pebble]

No sir, If Jacob treated his sons equally and everyone loved each other and there were no animosity against Joseph, Joseph in the well might not have happened and it might be a different OT we are reading now.

And, Biblically, God do have an overall plan until everything that is evil is over.

So I'm asking if Jacob's favoritism, which we frown on, might have some divine influence and pre-determined?

In short, are some acts that we (with all our limitations) perceive as evil are actually pieces of the puzzle that is God's great plan?

If it happened to important characters in the OT, it might still be happening to people now. Not everybody has been enlightened and base their actions on God's truth, although we do have consciences.

But consciences can be subjective and elastic. I have catholic friends who think it's okay to commit minor infractions like lying 'cause the're gonna wash it away with a few hail mary's the next sunday at the confession. I was floored at first but I realized over time that people do have a different perception of things.

For the record, I perfectly understand that we could never hope fathom the mind of God, even if we combine a thousand Hawkings.

Thank you.

 

[FollowingHim]

This issue is far more complicated than fallible human minds can comprehend. It is at the same time completely true that we have free will, and that our actions both good and evil are predestined and influenced by God. Sounds contradictory only because we sit inside time and can't see the whole picture.

Imagine you live in a one-dimensional world. You are the Y. Food is the F. Road is the ....s. O are boulders.
.O...Y............O..........F..........
Can you get to the food? No. You can't go through the boulder. You can't climb over it, because you can't move up. You're in one dimension. You don't even know what up means. You can't even see up. Up doesn't exist. There is no up. You can't go around it because you can't go sideways. There is no sideways. Just a line. And there's a boulder on the line. In fact, you can't even see the food, as there's a boulder in the way. But this is normal to you. You go back and forwards, you've done it all your life, and you can comprehend nothing else. Your body wouldn't even work in more dimensions, even it is a line. As is the boulder. Everything is one dimension, and that is normal.

But God looks at you and He sees this:
............................................
......F........................*...........
.O...Y............O..........F..........
.............$...............................
.................................P..........
Two dimensions. Wow. And there's stuff in there you've never even heard of, *,$,P (they can be whatever you like). God can see you, the boulders, the food, and all this other stuff too. And he can even move you around the boulder to get to the food - to you that would be a "miracle" as it doesn't fit within your understanding of reality, but it makes perfect sense to God. But He can also move you upwards to get that food that's nearer to you, or shift it to you, or give you a * instead (whatever that is, maybe it's a toffee coated frog). None of that makes any sense to you, but it's completely sensible to God.

To you, you are "beside a boulder" and "beside another boulder". To God, you are "beside a boulder" and "beside another boulder" AND "beside some food". At the same time. To you, that is contradictory because it is impossible to be beside more that two things at once in a one-dimensional world. That would be ridiculous and incomprehensible. But to God it is true.

Now imagine a third dimension...

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

To us, the idea that we can have free will and be influenced by God at the same time sounds contradictory. But what are we to know, we're mortal humans stuck in the universe. God created the universe. He says both are true. So they're true. It makes sense to Him, so we can accept it, because we know He knows far better than we do.

As an aside, I think if you combined a thousand Hawkings you'd have less chance of fathoming the mind of God than if you just asked a random stranger to do it. A thousand Hawkings = Atheist * Atheist * Atheist * Atheist etc = Atheist^(1000). Not the ideal theologian.

 

[CecilW]

My simple opinion:

God & the devil are at WAR.

Good does not balance evil in the ying-yang symbol. Good results when good but opposing things are in balance, eg. Potassium & chloride = salt. Bad when they are out of balance.

The devil comes but to kill, steal, and destroy. Period. He has no motive for the good of humanity. When he looks at us, he sees his arch Enemy, as we were made in God's image.

God came to bring us life, and that more abundantly. Period. There is no shadow of turning.

God does not co-operate with the devil, and the devil does not co-operate with God. Jesus came to DESTROY ALL the works of the devil. God does not send the devil on his errands.

God ALWAYS has a plan A to accomplish His ends if we all choose to do right.

But He is so bloomin' SMART that he also has an infinite array of Plan B's, C's, etc. Contingencies via which He can apply pressure and influence events.

This is much like an industrialist employs a lobbyist, who employs a detective, them goes to a not-so-innocent politician with a carrot in one hand and a stick in the other. Does the politician still have the free will to fess up and take his lumps regarding his indiscretions and refuse to buckle to the pressure? Of course. Is he likely to? Hahah!

PLUS, He has the power to influence Nature in ways that over-ride the devil's power. So He can be pretty durn persuasive when He wants.

Thus we come to Romans 8 whatever that actually says, "In all things, God is at work to bring about good for those who love Him." In other words, He always pulls out another plan and gets involved.

And He promises to ultimately win, on each issue, so the trials along the way are just part of the show.

Eg. I think it was George Muller who prayed for the salvation of one man for something like 60 years, died, and the man gave his heart to God at Muller's funeral!

Eg2. Some of us men have wives who have left over PM, but we do not feel a release to divorce them. Instead we continue to pray, despite divorce, child support enforcement, lies told about us, cut communications, alienated children, loss of church membership, fortune, belongings, etc. Did God bring any of that about? Predestine it? Hell, no! Is He at work to turn it to ultimate good? Heavens, yes!

And it is wonderful when we get a glimpse of Him making progress! As I got last night! Yay!

 

[pebble]

God and time. I ran across a post regarding God's possible point of view of time. I've checked genesis but ain't sure if its supported by it. Gonna post it once I've organized my thoughts.

War. That's what turn a lot of "religious" folks into unbelievers. The idea that we are just pawns in a war between God and Satan.

Faith, haha. Most often, the simplest answers are the right ones.

He can indeed be most persuasive. I have nothing to complain about. This inquiry is not simply for me. It's part of the girding the armor and sharpening the sword thing 'cause not many will fly on faith alone.

Ahh, I too has been under pressure from the very people most important to me but I'm holding on, with God's help, I'm keeping a very firm grip.

And it is wonderful when we get a glimpse of Him making progress! As I got last night! Yay!

Good to hear that.

Thank you sirs.