Dedicated Altar

[Cap]

Sorry @Cap Christian doctrine does not necessarily = Word of God.... as evidence, I give you monogamy-only.

I agree and wasn't the point I was trying to make. I meant to say that I follow the Word of God and not Christian doctrine, accept were it follows the Word of God. But, mostly Christian doctrine is really Religious doctrine.

Pressed for time now, but I look forward to the other comments you made. I think this is a very important topic and one I probably need to do more research on.

 

[Pacman]

Sorry @Cap Christian doctrine does not necessarily = Word of God.... as evidence, I give you monogamy-only.

Disagree here. The definition of Christian is “little christ’s” or more applicable “Christ like” or “Christ follower” and we know that Christ 100% followed the word of God. Just because people claiming to be Christ like do some things that are not biblical (even the majority of them for centuries) doesn’t change the fact that true Christian doctrine is by definition the word of God.

This is actually one of the reasons why I still identify as Independent Baptist our creed is “the Bible is my sole authority for faith and the practice of that faith” obviously all of us fall short of that but it clearly defines that our only authority is scripture. Not some denomination or government or any other hierarchy. That’s the whole point. Be Christian. Follow the Bible and no one else...

 

[Cap]

How do we see Ezekiel 43-48 fulfilled without sacrifice?

This is a vision, not unlike Revelations. Trying to attribute it to something literal is always a stretch.

Revelation 9 7The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months.

These are AH-64 Apache helicopters right?

How do we see Isaiah 5:1-5 and Micah 2:1-4 fulfilled without sacrifice?

I admit, I am not sure how these relate to a third temple and sacrifices. Unless you are trying to imply that Judah is the good grapes and the vineyard (Church) is the bad grapes?

Do we really think one like unto Moses will come without being obedient to Torah?

One like Moses has already come, he is the Son of God, and He does with the Old Covenant as He wills.

If the antimessiah is lawLESS the we should expect a Messiah that is lawFUL. Else, how do we tell them apart?

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

How else would you know except for the Spirit of the Living God with in you. (This does concern me a little as I hear you say that those who follow 'Torah' are of the Messiah and those who don't are of the Antichrist.)

If in the millennial reign, the Messiah rules with a rod of iron, what is the standard.

1 John 4:8 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

John 18:37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

The rod of iron to unbelievers. The Standard.

As to sacrifice, Hebrews 8:4ish clearly says the sacrifices were being offered lawfully. There are many reasons besides sin to offer a sacrifice.

Now, this one is interesting. Sorry that I had to post the whole section but it's important.

The High Priest of a New Covenant

Hebrews 8

1Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being. (The True Temple)

3Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4If he were on earth, he would not be a priest (If the Son of God were on Earth, performing sacrifices He would not be a priest), for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the (old) law. 5They (those who administrator the old covenant) serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” a 6But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs (those who administrator the old covenant)as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

7For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8But God found fault with the people and said b :

“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” c13By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

 

[PeteR]

This is a vision, not unlike Revelations. Trying to attribute it to something literal is always a stretch.

Revelation 9:7 is clearly metaphor. Ezekiel is not. Apples and oranges. Ezekiel spells out in great detail, none of it metaphor, not only the design but the inner workings of the Temple. He is very clear in 44 that the 'fat and the blood' will be offered and that the priesthood, some by lineage and some appointed, will judge according to 'My ordinances' and 'keep My Torah, My statutes, My appointed feasts and My sabbaths.' (v.24) simply, you cannot ascribe this to 'metaphor' because it exactly comports with the rest of Scripture as I will demonstrate.

My mistake on misquoting the Isaiah and Micah references... Isaiah 2:1-5 and Micah 4:1-5. v.2: 'in the last days...' v. 3: 'to the house of the God of Jacob that He may teach us concerning His ways and that we may walk in His paths. For the TORAH will go forth from Zion and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem...' (I capitalized Word' because this is a specific reference to the Messiah.)

So, why is Torah taught in the last days from Jerusalem? I'm glad you brought up the 'new' covenant...

Who is the new covenant with? Your translation mistranslates the Greek... It is with the 'house of Israel' and the 'house of Judah.' This is exactly how both Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31 state it. It is not with the Gentiles as Christians errantly teach and believe. (This is not to say we are not grafted in, BUT, we don't own the house, nor do we get to rewrite the rules or the definitions.)

Now, to address Hebrews 8 and the points you make:

• Yes, the Temple/Tabernacle are copies of the Heavenly, but this in no way makes it useless. rather, Scripture clearly relates its relevance until the end of time and its return in the last days.
• 'if the Son of God were on earth...' Of course, He is not of the tribe of Levi and cannot serve as the earthly High Priest, however, He is the priest forever according to the Order of Melchizedek, thereby making Him the overseeing Prince in Ezekiel's vision of the Third Temple. The key is that He is insuring that the Torah is being fulfilled properly, exactly as He is supposed to do.
• '(old) law...' REALLY?!? Where? Jesus/Yeshua said, 'until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass from the law until all is accomplished.' It is not all accomplished therefore not one jot, not the smallest letter has disappeared, contrary to volumes commentary to the contrary. He further said, 'Whoever then annuls or teaches to annul the least of the commandments shall be called least in the kingdom, but whoever keeps and teaches, he shall be called great in the kingdom.' Want to be least? There is your recipe. Annul just one commandment.
• Yeshua's covenant indeed is better. Why? Because those previously barred from the original due to their own disobedience can now be brought near. The lost tribes, the scattered and dispersed of Israel can be brought home through the Messiah. (This would take a book to unpack... oh, wait! I wrote it!)
• Verse 7... Oh... I just sigh. Usually mistranslated and it is so again here... Typical bias by translators inserting 'covenant' a word that is not in the Greek text. Rather, the new is 'priesthood' the very topic of the whole chapter. And, God never found fault with His own Law!! The fault was with 'them', the priesthood, not 'it' the Law.
• I had to look up your translation here... NIV. Brother, please, get a solid translation that doesn't change words and concepts... v.8: 'God found fault with the people..'?? Sorry, 'people' is not in the Greek. The word that is there is 'them.'
• 'New' covenant... v.8 Check the Greek word for 'new'. It is neos meaning 'renewed.' It is not kainos meaning 'brand spanking new, different, never seen before.'
• 'not be like the covenant...' the difference is that it will be written on our hearts. Notice, like text, I wrote that in future tense. Why? Because it clearly has not been done yet. Three evidences: 1. Ezekiel 36:24-27 uses identical language for a yet future event, 2. Deuteronomy 31:1-6 is a parallel again pointing to a future regathering (Yeshua uses v4 from this passage in Matthew 24:31... note: regathering from the 'ends of the sky', and 3. the rest of the promise is that no longer will fellow citizens teach their brother to 'know the Lord' because they will all know Me... This has not happened, therefore, the new covenant is not yet in effect, a shocker to most anyone inculcated with the idea that we are already in the new covenant.
• The covenant will write Torah on our hearts. See Jeremiah 31:33 in the Hebrew.
  
• To recap: the REnewed covenant is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah and will write Torah on our hearts.
• The last verse, 13 again is mistranslated. The word 'covenant' does not appear in the Greek. The subject of the chapter, indeed all of Hebrews, is the priesthood. V. 8 is about 'them' (the priests) and then after a lengthy quote, the 'them' comes back to the fore. It is significant to note that the word 'new' is the Greek kainos, pointing to a new priesthood.

The Standard, which you couldn't answer above, is Torah. It hasn't gone anywhere. Parts dealing with Temple worship and sacrifice have been suspended due to no Temple or priesthood, but suspended is a far cry from 'done away with.'

 

[Cap]

Revelation 9:7 is clearly metaphor. Ezekiel is not. Apples and oranges. Ezekiel spells out in great detail, none of it metaphor, not only the design but the inner workings of the Temple.

Ezekiel 43:1-5 clearly says it's a vision.

I believe what is being described is the description of the New Jerusalem that comes to earth from heaven. I also think you are reading a lot into your understanding. But that's for you, my post was not to try and change you mind just reveal what I think.

Sorry you don't approve of the version I used but I don't find it that far off from your interpretation.

 

[PeteR]

Ezekiel 43:1-5 clearly says it's a vision.

Just becsuse it is a vision does not make it a metaphor.

 

[Cap]

Just becsuse it is a vision does not make it a metaphor.

Doesn't make it literal either.

 

[Verifyveritas76]

@Ancient Paths have you ever examined the renewed covenant as being the Melchizedek priesthood?
That was the priesthood model that the Levitical/Aaronic was substituted for.

I’d submit that when Christ renewed the covenant as the Melchizedek, it was reinstated by the one who had always been The Melchizedek and whom the Aaronic high priest was an incredibly poor substitute for.

He restored/renewed a priesthood of the head of household or the firstborn.

 

[PeteR]

I can see shades of that in Ezekiel 44 where some who are not Levites are chosen to serve in the Temple. Zadokites who have the eternal covenant of peace through Pinchas. I do believe the priesthood was intended to be in the home and through the firstborn... Adam... but, we do have a substitute system until the end of the age.

There maybe a partial transfer beyond the Zadokite priests as pictured in the resurrected 144,000 who serve in the Temple..... but, as Yeshua says, the Torah stands until heaven and earth pass away. it is the standard to a 1000 generations.

 

[PeteR]

Ezekiel 43:1-5 clearly says it's a vision.

I believe what is being described is the description of the New Jerusalem that comes to earth from heaven. I also think you are reading a lot into your understanding. But that's for you, my post was not to try and change you mind just reveal what I think.

Sorry you don't approve of the version I used but I don't find it that far off from your interpretation.

Cant be the new Jerusalem as 44:15ff say the daily sacrifice will include fat and blood. At the point of the new Jerusalem, I don't see sacrifice. I think the Temple described is the millennial Temple.

 

[Cap]

Cant be the new Jerusalem as 44:15ff say the daily sacrifice will include fat and blood. At the point of the new Jerusalem, I don't see sacrifice. I think the Temple described is the millennial Temple.

Ezekiel 44 is describing the interaction of those who can minister in the heavenly realm and the earthly realm. They are the immortal ones that serve God and man. They will be the ones of the true Melchizedek priesthood. The blood and fat is not literal but spiritual. (Just like the Communion we do today.)

 

[PeteR]

I was a seminary trained ordained minister and I made excuses for what the Word actually says by spiritualizing anything that didn't fit the paradigm I was steeped in.... then Light!

Love ya, bro, but spiritualizing that passage to explain it away is painful. Israel is a miracle nation today precisely because the prophecies are true and fulfilled literally. The ride is getting more exciting and the action/roadmap is in the 'minor' prophets. A literal reading will help make sense of the world.

Blessings.

 

[Cap]

Israel is a miracle nation today precisely because the prophecies are true and fulfilled literally.

I respect your journey to find the truth my friend, I'm just a lowly Bible reader with the Holy Spirit but the current place of the nation state called Israel raises more questions than answers.

We are getting into some really heavy duty stuff if we go down the road of trying to understand who really is a Jew, in God's eyes.

 

[PeteR]

Here is an interesting read/listen.... It is the second of a two-parter.

https://beastwatchnews.com/sanhedrin-pushing-hard-for-messiah-to-come

 

[PeteR]

We are getting into some really heavy duty stuff if we go down the road of trying to understand who really is a Jew, in God's eyes.

@Cap it is not as complicated as Christendom or Judaism makes it out... Paradigm shift required: All Jews are Israelite, not all Israelites are Jews. Or, put another way, All Jews are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are Jews.

Christendom wants to paint physical lineage completely out of the picture and make it only spiritual. Judaism wants to make it only physical... The truth is both elements are involved.

Another common error taught in both Judaism and Christianity is that the terms 'Israel' and 'Jew' are identical when in fact, even the new covenant distinguishes between the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Simply take a sheet of paper and begin to record the promises, judgments and prophesies for the house of Israel and for the house of Judah and you will quickly realize that God is very specific in dealing with two different people groups that each have a specific and important role to play in the course of history and His plan of redemption. What is sad is that for 2900 years each half has been trying to reject the other and take the blessings/promises and prophecies of the other... Christianity manifests this as antisemitism and replacement theology, both grave errors against God's Word, His people (all of them!) and HIM.

Therefore, trying to spiritualize physical prophecies so that we can write the Jews off or minimize the reason for Israel as a nation today are gross error. Is Israel (the nation) perfect? Of course not. Will God yet clean them up? Certainly. In the meantime, our calling is to love and encourage them and their existence while taking a hard look at our own theology and identify the places where we have intentionally ignored or written off parts of His Torah based on the lies of our antisemitic church fathers.

Here is a really hard truth to face up to: Christianity and Judaism define themselves more against each other than against the Word of God. Study that one out and the history of the two religions.

Jesus didn't come to start a new religion. He came to be the Holy One of Israel, the Lion of Judah and the King of Israel. He is still working toward that end...

A final note and I'll leave you to ponder: Why, when the disciples asked Jesus/Yeshua their final question (Lord, is it at this time You are going to restore Kingdom Israel?), did He send them to the capital cities of Judah and Israel as well as the lands where the two people groups dwelt? https://natsab.com/2014/03/19/acts-16-7/

 

[Cap]

I understand what you are saying and know the relationships between Israel and Judah. And their place in God's history. However, God does not go by genealogy any more, He goes by faith. Those who believe in the salvation work are Judah.

Roman 2:17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” 25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and boast in God; 18 if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19 if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of little children, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.” 25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker. 28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God

 

[Cap]

@Ancient Paths , can I ask you what your thoughts are on Paul?

 

[Shadowjak's Dancer]

I also disagree with over spiritualizing everything. In fact, Jeremiah 33 links the eternal nature of the covenant with David to the unending Levitical Priesthood. Have a look for yourself.

Now, a lot of people get into what I believe is a false dichotomy. Who ever said that the Levitical Priesthood and the Melchizidek can't be concurrent, but officiating over different spheres of jurisdiction?

 

[FollowingHim]

Therefore, trying to spiritualize physical prophecies so that we can write the Jews off or minimize the reason for Israel as a nation today are gross error. Is Israel (the nation) perfect? Of course not. Will God yet clean them up? Certainly. In the meantime, our calling is to love and encourage them and their existence while taking a hard look at our own theology and identify the places where we have intentionally ignored or written off parts of His Torah based on the lies of our antisemitic church fathers.

I agree with you on the identity of Jews, Israelites etc. However, a major error is then to assume that the modern state of Israel accurately represents the Jews. In the above paragraph you jump back and forth between talking about the Jews, and the nation of Israel, as if they were the same thing. Yes, this nation was formed mainly by Jews, however there are many Jews that are not there and many non-Jews who are. And many of the 'Jews' who are there are secular anyway. The political situation regarding its formation and current existence are extremely complicated and could be debated for ever. Depending on how you look at it, it can be seen as a secular political entity that has taken on a religious identity in order to get financial and military support of a certain sector of the West. It is in fact possible to support the Jews from a religious perspective while opposing the state of Israel from a geopolitical perspective - and also vice versa.

I'm not saying that any one position here is correct, just pointing out that you're conflating the religious and political in a way that is debatable.

 

[Cap]

In my trying to find more information on this I came across a work that describes the understanding that seems to work for me.

I know it's long but please take a look and tell me what you think.

https://www.gods-kingdom-ministries...s-a-jew/chapter-1-the-two-fig-trees-of-judah/

https://www.gods-kingdom-ministries...ew/chapter-2-genealogical-and-converted-jews/