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David and Bathsheba?

There is times in Torah where an instruction is given to man that applies to both sexes. ... I would say I'm unaware of a prohibition for a man that it would ok for a woman to do. I may be wrong. For example, Since the prohibition was given to men not to engage in homosexuality does it then not apply to women? ... Leviticus 20:13 ... Romans 1:26-27
Briefly to avoid yet another tangent: Leviticus 20 is full of extremely gender-specific commands. Every verse clearly talks about men and women using different words. When something is to be forbidden for both, such as bestiality only two verses later, this is explicitly stated to ensure there is no misunderstanding (v15-16). To take this list of precisely stated gender-specific instructions, and pluck one out of the middle of it (v13) and assume that the gender-specificity does not actually apply for that particular verse and this one just happens to apply to both, is not accurate exegesis. It is interpreting the passage to fit a preconception of what our emotions / upbringing tell us must be correct. With that understood, and the knowledge that without law there is no sin, the only passage that might possibly mention female-female relations becomes Romans 1:26-27. And on close reading you find that that single proof-text is actually able to be interpreted several ways. So it becomes a single statement with several possible interpretations and without a second witness anywhere in scripture to verify which interpretation is correct. Sadly wherever scriptural witness is scarce humans have a bad habit of filling the gap with emotion and arguing even more fervently regardless...
I conclude from this that God hates male-male relations enough to explicitly and repeatedly forbid them, but He doesn't see female-female relations as important enough to bother explaining clearly. So it's not something for us to worry about either (whatever our emotional view on them may be), there are more critical matters that He has actually stated clearly which should be our actual focus.
Though whenever we doubt it's entirely reasonable to take a conservative position when it comes to our own behaviour in order to avoid the possibility of sin.
 
...I conclude from this that God hates male-male relations enough to explicitly and repeatedly forbid them, but He doesn't see female-female relations as important enough to bother explaining clearly...
I've come to the same conclusion on this. Recently when teaching on the "holiness code" I was very careful to always explicitly specify "male homosexuality" since there are lesbian couples who actually attend the congregation (torah keeping congregation). One thing I considered was the actual possible necessity in cases like Solomon's wives. Just what are they supposed to do waiting their 3 years for one round with him? They can't have another man because it's adultery. I think this is likely one reason why it's not for bidden in the Law; at least bisexuality for women may serve some purpose in not driving them into adultery. I don't want to impose something on them I don't see in the text. (I did make sure to mention women shouldn't dress like men since that is in the text)

No, the versus you quote are in reference to Paul, a Pharisee, who was caught between two worlds. I believe the versus you quote are being taken out of context.
In the verses I quoted he is already a follower of the Messiah as are the elders of the Jerusalem council who are speaking to him in Acts.

Could we do that in a different thread please. I feel like we’re finally making progress with this one.:eek:
hehe, sure no problem.
 
Ish and FH are right. Sex represents the relationship with God. Men are the stand in for God in that metaphor (The Metaphor) and the most fundamental Law of the universe is that there is only one God. Male homosexuality presents a representation of two gods, hence it is repellant to God and creation itself strikes out against it. Obviously all of that is pure opinion.
 
Sex is a representation of headship. We cover women we marry, have sex with. If not then the arguement implies the need to marry or marriage is void. Your saying that a Polyamorous wife can serve two masters then. Because sex equals covering equals headship. So women can be in Authority therefore they don't need to be covered by a man. Wait I know your going to say that there's no penal penetration so it's not sex, so then your wives are free to go off and have nonsex sexual relationships with women if they choose. Its not adultery, and it's not prohibited. They dont need permission theres nowhere in scripture does it say she does.

Lesbianism/Bisexuality in women is the ultimate expression of radical feminism. If you justify Lesbianism/Bisexuality in women then your justfing feminism.

http://www.biblicalfamilies.org/forum/threads/to-avoid-derailing-another-thread.14175/
 
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since there are lesbian couples who actually attend the congregation (torah keeping congregation). One thing I considered was the actual possible necessity in cases like Solomon's wives. Just what are they supposed to do waiting their 3 years for one round with him? They can't have another man because it's adultery. I think this is likely one reason why it's not for bidden in the Law; at least bisexuality for women may serve some purpose in not driving them into adultery.

Straight Lesbianism transgresses "be fruitful and multiply"

What about those hedges?

I've never heard of anything from the talmud regarding lesbianism or bisexuality for females.

Moses ben Maimon (1135‑1204) (known as Maimonides or Rambam) clarified the halakhic position in his code, the Mishneh Torah (Hilchot Issurei Bi’ah 21:8). He wrote:

“For women to play around with one another is forbidden and belongs to ‘the practices of the Egyptians’ concerning which we have been warned, ‘You shall not copy the practices of the land of Egypt’…But though such conduct is forbidden, it is not punishable by lashing since there is no specific prohibition against it and in any case no sexual intercourse takes place at all. Consequently, such women are not forbidden to the priesthood on account of unchastity, nor is a woman prohibited to her husband because of it, since this does not constitute unchastity. But it is appropriate to flog such women since they have done a forbidden thing. A man should be particularly strict with his wife in this matter, and should prevent women known to indulge in such practices from visiting her, and her from going to visit them.”

Maimonides’ formulation of the halakha was upheld by Jacob ben Asher (1270?‑1340) in his Arba’ah Turim a century later (Even haEzer 24), and by Joseph Caro (1488‑1575), whose Shulchan Arukh (Even ha‑Ezer 24), published in 1563, became the authoritative guide to halakha throughout the Jewish world—a status it still occupies within Orthodox Jewry today. The Shulchan Arukh was the “final word” on the subject for 400 years.

It took 30 seconds to find, because I looked.
 
I moved my response to the new thread Kevin started to help in the decluttering
 
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Because it says that if a woman put away her husband and be married to another she committeth adultery. Are you saying that a woman is allowed to leave her husband and stay single? Is that what you're calling a divorce? If so then I agree with you.

I think it is only allowed in the sense that all things are allowed like in 1 Cor 10:23. In the sense that we all make mistakes and the blood of Jesus covers them. You could make a case that from this verse (Mark 10:12) that it could be allowed, but Paul seems to clearly shut that door in 1 Cor 7:10. The fact that there is a backup plan if you do do the wrong thing does not mitigate that it is the wrong thing to do.

As Christians we are not under a law. We do not look at the rules for what we can get away with. We are looking to do the best thing. What would please God the most?
 
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G-d>Yeshua>Moses

Actually I think this is an important theological point. Jesus is no demi-God. He is God. God and the Father are one (John 10:30). So the formula is like this:

Father = Jesus > Moses

Jesus takes a subservient position to the Father because as a man he is an example to us. But he is not a lessor being than the Father any more than the Holy Spirit is. Jesus is no demi-God. He is God.

The point is and why I bring it up in this discussion is that what you are getting from Jesus is the straight stuff.

That is why Jesus has the authority to trump Moses.

What you are actually saying is

Yeshuas words > The words given to Moses by G-d

Yes I am and I think Moses would agree with me.

And this is clearly seen in scripture.

Matthew 19: 8 - Moses permitted X
Matthew 19: 9 - [Jesus] I tell you Y (trumps Moses)

Most of the sermon on the mount is the same way.

Yeshua > G-d

No. See above. Jesus [GOD] = Father [GOD]

If your saying G-d did not give Moses the law then any definition about Adultery or rulings about divorce gleaned from it is the works of man. Not even the Ten commandments because the ones written by the finger of G-d were smashed Moses wrote the next set of tablets. It's said that Moses wrote the first five books, that G-d gave him the narrative of Adam and Eve ect.

No I am saying that anything that contradicts what Jesus says does not matter. If God says he hates divorce, if Jesus says not to do it, and Paul says not do it and Moses says maybe sometimes then the burden is to understand why Moses is out of step, not try to balance it all about by contradicting what our Lord said.

Another thing
Theres no confusion on my part G-d/Yeshua doesn't need witnesses. Man needs witnesses to show him he Is not relying on his own interpretation. This scripture is specifically talking about Yeshuas nature and who he is and is a warning that if you dont know Him and follow Him, you dont know the Father and will be seperated from him because of your sins. So unless your saying your Yeshua or that the Father is winess to your understanding this doesn't apply.

Luke 16:18 - "“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." - What is another way to understand this except for the plain meaning of Jesus' words?

There is no real alternate meaning or explanation as far as I can see. People just do not like what it says. Shoot the messenger if you want. I did not say it. Jesus said it.
 
With all due respect, Mark is silent about the exemption. Thus according to the plain reading of Marks account, a man may divorce but not remarry or it is adultery. Luke’s account corroborates.

I do not think this is an accident. Matthew is the account that tells us Joseph is going to divorce Mary when he learns that she is pregnant with not his child. Thus Matthew adds the exception.
 
Mark is also a whole lot shorter of a book. Matthew is the only one which records Jesus teaching on divorce twice.
 
Actually I think this is an important theological point. Jesus is no demi-God. He is God. God and the Father are one (John 10:30). So the formula is like this:Father = Jesus > Moses
Jesus takes a subservient position to the Father because as a man he is an example to us. But he is not a lessor being than the Father any more than the Holy Spirit is. Jesus is no demi-God. He is God.
The point is and why I bring it up in this discussion is that what you are getting from Jesus is the straight stuff.
That is why Jesus has the authority to trump Moses....
Well...there's some missing the point with this statement. Trumping Moses actually means trumping G-d.
It's not like Moses was free-wheeling it; the words are inspired and often even dictated by the Almighty Himself. So since Moses recorded what the Father wanted then
by association your statement can be re-stated:
"Jesus has the authority to trump the Father"
There is no disharmony at all between Yeshua's teaching and the Father's words as conveyed by His servant Moses.

The saying "Yeshua and the Father are One" can just as accurately be translated "Yeshua and the Father are united" (referring back to the Hebrew). There are discussions elsewhere here about the nature of the word אחד eḥad so I won't belabor the point.
There is no conflict between Yeshua and Moses; this is a Gentile church tradition only. Fiercely held and defended as many traditions are, but a tradition nonetheless.

Regarding the hierarchy of the Father over Yeshua, it's quite clear Father>Yeshua in ALL aspects; there is no equal rank there.
Human form, resurrected form, pre-existant form as "The angel of the L-rd", Yeshua is ALWAYS subservient to His father. Even the language Yeshua uses regarding His future position in heaven is all submissive to the Father ("right hand of the Father") etc. All of Yeshua's authority is given to Him by the Father.
To oversimplify it to just "He is God" in not a valid washing away of the correct hierarchy @Kevin submitted.
I'm not aware of anyone in this thread claiming a demi-god status for Yeshua so that I think is a bit of a strawman in the mix. If we examine the sum of the Messiah's claims it most certainly does not leave the nature of the Father,Son,Spirit clear cut.
Even when we pray, Yeshua instructed us to direct our prayers "Our Father" to the Father.

"And to the Angel of the Sardian church write: 'the words of the One who has at His disposal the 7 Spirits of G-d and the 7 stars...' " Revelation 3:1a
 
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another thought... since Yeshua HAD to live 100% under the Law of G-d as shared by Moses, this means Yeshua also had no liberty to meaningfully "take away or add to this Law".
That's right, He was not able to subvert the Law of Moses in any way at all while on Earth otherwise He would have sinned and been unable to redeem us.
No trumping of Moses going on in Yeshua's days on the Earth...
 
another thought... since Yeshua HAD to live 100% under the Law of G-d as shared by Moses, this means Yeshua also had no liberty to meaningfully "take away or add to this Law".
That's right, He was not able to subvert the Law of Moses in any way at all while on Earth otherwise He would have sinned and been unable to redeem us.
No trumping of Moses going on in Yeshua's days on the Earth...

Before this ends up derailing this thread, any additional comments or posts regarding this topic, lets take to another thread, please. Obviously this is a topic that tends to end up polarizing people for good reasons (myself included) so it would be best if it was in a thread that others could ignore if they so chose.
 
There is no real alternate meaning or explanation as far as I can see. People just do not like what it says. Shoot the messenger if you want. I did not say it. Jesus said it.
There are alternate explanations that are not only plausible but also explain in a way that Yeshua is not adding to the law.

https://bible.org/seriespage/7-teaching-jesus-divorce-matthew-193-12-mark-102-12

An interesting read. Here's a quote. (with my 2 cents)

'"And he answered and said, “Have you not read, that he who created them from the beginning of creation made them male and female, and said ‘For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh’? Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore G-d has joined together, let no man separate.”

They had been concerned with “when the man may walk away from his wife.” ( like the concerns on this thread about if a woman is allowed to divorce and if she is allowed to remarry) Jesus points out that the design of marriage is not to see it end. The man and his wife were designed to complement each other. When that complement became a covenanted couple, a union was formed, and the choice to do so involved an intention never to go back to their former singleness—it was an intention to permanency. Having acted on that choice, they do not have the right simply to “walk away” but should see themselves as a continuing social unit. And it must be remembered that G-d himself is the guarantor of the covenant. No human being should think that he or she has the moral right, unilaterally to dissolve the covenant. [or is morally right to cast judgement if someone is allowed to dissolve a covenant (divorce), enter a new covenant (remarry), or nullify G-ds words with their interpretation] The covenant cannot be dissolved without challenging the One who insures the covenant: G-d himself. (Spiritual Adultery)

At this point we should pause in our flowing dialogue and note how inappropriate it would have been for Jesus to have interrupted His argument by making new or incidental points about the doctrine of marriage. This would not have been the time to adopt the Temple Scroll approach to polygyny, (I like how he points out this is not a rebuke of Polygyny) for example. By employing the Septuagints “the two,” He simply means to identify clearly that the two who once could turn and walk away from each other (i.e., before the marriage commitment) have by their choice eliminated the option of doing so.

Many modern teachers of the Bible find it easy here to interpret Jesus as implying that, since “G-d has joined” the partners, Jesus is saying that marriage was originally made a permanent institution. The verse teaches nothing of the kind. Jesus does not say, “Since what G-d joins together is permanent, don’t get a divorce.” To have said that would have been to say exactly what the Pharisees wanted Him to say. (saying that a divorced woman cant remarry would also be teaching against Torah, since it clearly says if she can in a few instances, and would have played into the Pharisees hands) It would have shown Him to be teaching contrary to the Old Testament by adding to it (or would that have been a taking away?)(Duetoronmy 4:2, if he sinned he wasn't the Messiah).342 Jesus affirmed as strongly as possible (without abrogating any teaching of the Law) the obligation of marriage partners to stay married. He said that it is immoral to sever the marriage bond, but not that it is impossible to do so. He does not say, “Since G-d insures marriage, you should never get a divorce.”(He never said women cannot divorce, women are forbiden from remarrying)343 Jesus does not use the normal and technical term for divorce here, but instead uses the word chorizo,which is well translated “sunder.” In all the uses of this word in the New Testament it never is used as an exact synonym for divorce. Jesus does not deny the right to divorce a spouse, He merely says it is wrong to sunder a marriage covenant.

What is not clear in this statement is exactly when such a sundering takes place. It could be at the point of divorce, or it could be at the point of porneia or even “uncleanness.” Jesus had affirmed the basics of /marriage divorce, without giving the Pharisees anything to “shoot at.”

But the Pharisees (like some of our modern exegetes) jumped to the hasty conclusion that by this saying Jesus implied that a man may not divorce his wife at all. (or that women cannot divorce or remarry) And they are partially right, for from the context it is clear that some divorces might be categorized as sundering events!'

Question:
What's the difference between the Pharisees focusing on whether a man has the right to divorce for any reason and the focus of the Proponents of woman cannot divorce and remarry doctrine? Both are ignoring the Spirit of the teaching.

Plain reading says divorce is only acceptable in cases of porneia such as homosexuality, beastiality, incest, idolatry, and harlotry. Not moicheia (adultery), so plain meaning says your stuck with a cheating wife. Plain meaning also says that marriage after divorce is adultery for all involved, period. It never says that if your wife or husband commits porneia that your allowed to remarry.

Before someone says that's the extreme veiw, no it's not. It's the plain reading. The less extreme veiws require interpretation.
 
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Plain reading says divorce is only acceptable in cases of porneia such as homosexuality, beastiality, incest, idolatry, and harlotry. Not moicheia (adultery), so plain meaning says your stuck with a cheating wife.

How is it you find adultery not included in the list of sexual sins under porneia?
 
How is it you find adultery not included in the list of sexual sins under porneia?
There's been numerous post on the subject on many threads. As I reread the statments made of many of the proponents of the woman cant divorce and can't remarry doctrine, excluding yourself these are older post, most were in agreeance that the plain reading of porneia did not mean adultery in this case since moicheia was also used in the verse. The stance was presented as a plain reading so I used it to show how plain readings can be wrong. I just needed someone to ask about it, so I could point it out.:)
 
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There are alternate explanations that are not only plausible but also explain in a way that Yeshua is not adding to the law.

https://bible.org/seriespage/7-teaching-jesus-divorce-matthew-193-12-mark-102-12

An interesting read. Here's a quote. (with my 2 cents)

'"And he answered and said, “Have you not read, that he who created them from the beginning of creation made them male and female, and said ‘For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh’? Consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore G-d has joined together, let no man separate.”

They had been concerned with “when the man may walk away from his wife.” ( like the concerns on this thread about if a woman is allowed to divorce and if she is allowed to remarry) Jesus points out that the design of marriage is not to see it end. The man and his wife were designed to complement each other. When that complement became a covenanted couple, a union was formed, and the choice to do so involved an intention never to go back to their former singleness—it was an intention to permanency. Having acted on that choice, they do not have the right simply to “walk away” but should see themselves as a continuing social unit. And it must be remembered that G-d himself is the guarantor of the covenant. No human being should think that he or she has the moral right, unilaterally to dissolve the covenant. [or is morally right to cast judgement if someone is allowed to dissolve a covenant (divorce), enter a new covenant (remarry), or nullify G-ds words with their interpretation] The covenant cannot be dissolved without challenging the One who insures the covenant: G-d himself. (Spiritual Adultery)

At this point we should pause in our flowing dialogue and note how inappropriate it would have been for Jesus to have interrupted His argument by making new or incidental points about the doctrine of marriage. This would not have been the time to adopt the Temple Scroll approach to polygyny, (I like how he points out this is not a rebuke of Polygyny) for example. By employing the Septuagints “the two,” He simply means to identify clearly that the two who once could turn and walk away from each other (i.e., before the marriage commitment) have by their choice eliminated the option of doing so.

Many modern teachers of the Bible find it easy here to interpret Jesus as implying that, since “G-d has joined” the partners, Jesus is saying that marriage was originally made a permanent institution. The verse teaches nothing of the kind. Jesus does not say, “Since what G-d joins together is permanent, don’t get a divorce.” To have said that would have been to say exactly what the Pharisees wanted Him to say. (saying that a divorced woman cant remarry would also be teaching against Torah, since it clearly says if she can in a few instances, and would have played into the Pharisees hands) It would have shown Him to be teaching contrary to the Old Testament by adding to it (or would that have been a taking away?)(Duetoronmy 4:2, if he sinned he wasn't the Messiah).342 Jesus affirmed as strongly as possible (without abrogating any teaching of the Law) the obligation of marriage partners to stay married. He said that it is immoral to sever the marriage bond, but not that it is impossible to do so. He does not say, “Since G-d insures marriage, you should never get a divorce.”(He never said women cannot divorce, women are forbiden from remarrying)343 Jesus does not use the normal and technical term for divorce here, but instead uses the word chorizo,which is well translated “sunder.” In all the uses of this word in the New Testament it never is used as an exact synonym for divorce. Jesus does not deny the right to divorce a spouse, He merely says it is wrong to sunder a marriage covenant.

What is not clear in this statement is exactly when such a sundering takes place. It could be at the point of divorce, or it could be at the point of porneia or even “uncleanness.” Jesus had affirmed the basics of /marriage divorce, without giving the Pharisees anything to “shoot at.”

But the Pharisees (like some of our modern exegetes) jumped to the hasty conclusion that by this saying Jesus implied that a man may not divorce his wife at all. (or that women cannot divorce or remarry) And they are partially right, for from the context it is clear that some divorces might be categorized as sundering events!'

Question:
What's the difference between the Pharisees focusing on whether a man has the right to divorce for any reason and the focus of the Proponents of woman cannot divorce and remarry doctrine? Both are ignoring the Spirit of the teaching.

Plain reading says divorce is only acceptable in cases of porneia such as homosexuality, beastiality, incest, idolatry, and harlotry. Not moicheia (adultery), so plain meaning says your stuck with a cheating wife. Plain meaning also says that marriage after divorce is adultery for all involved, period. It never says that if your wife or husband commits porneia that your allowed to remarry.

Before someone says that's the extreme veiw, no it's not. It's the plain reading. The less extreme veiws require interpretation.

There is so much about this that I don't get. Jesus did make new doctrine about marriage, specifically expanding the definition of adultery to include desire and (despite what this thread may lead one to believe) clarify both the theory and practice of divorce.

Let me make a simple statement. Divorce without porneia (which should include adultery but I don't want to get off into that weed patch at the moment) is not permissible. So we have two basic categories here; a lawful "divorce" or an unlawful shunning. I'll use those terms for the two states.

Both states can result in very different results for the two participants. If a man lawfully divorces a woman, meaning he gives her a writ of divorce for a qualifying offense and she hasn't been stoned then they're both free to remarry. If he gives her a writ of divorce for an unlawful reason then she is still free. He gave her a writ and satisfied the Law. HOWEVER he is not free to remarry.

Now a shunning is a little complicated and this is where Andrew's Spirit led approach get's very appealing. A man who shuns his wife is not free to remarry and technically she isn't either since she doesn't have a writ of divorce, BUT if she does remarry that adultery falls back on her first husband. It's his sin to bear.

Now I know I didn't provide any scripture to back all of this up. Frankly our proof texts haven't been clarifying anything. But I am pretty sure that anyone who is familiar with the verses on the topic will recognize that this satisfies all of the different passages and is actually both simple and just.

If definitely doesn't leave room for a woman to issue a divorce and then be free to remarry though. There is just no way to read that directly in to the text.
 
Now a shunning is a little complicated and this is where Andrew's Spirit led approach get's very appealing. A man who shuns his wife is not free to remarry and technically she isn't either since she doesn't have a writ of divorce, BUT if she does remarry that adultery falls back on her first husband. It's his sin to bear.

So, I’m pretty sure that I’m following the thought and agreeing with almost all of the post above, but I’m a bit curious about your thoughts on the unlawful shunning. What does this look like to you in real time, biblically or otherwise?
 
Both states can result in very different results for the two participants. If a man lawfully divorces a woman, meaning he gives her a writ of divorce for a qualifying offense and she hasn't been stoned then they're both free to remarry. If he gives her a writ of divorce for an unlawful reason then she is still free. He gave her a writ and satisfied the Law. HOWEVER he is not free to remarry.

So wifely bestiality is a get out of marriage free card? Given there is no longer stoning for adultery, you're basically saying she's free to remarry after divorce in all cases? Nor does this jive with Matthew 5:31-32.

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

She still commits adultery when he puts her away for wrong reasons. Notice also, the divorcing husband needn't remarry to cause adultery. And although it doesn't say here he is guilty of adultery it does in the other passages.

this is where Andrew's Spirit led approach get's very appealing. A man who shuns his wife is not free to remarry and technically she isn't either since she doesn't have a writ of divorce, BUT if she does remarry that adultery falls back on her first husband. It's his sin to bear.

See Matthew 5:32 above again; "causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.". It's not so much that the guilt of adultery falls back exclusively on her first husband and she's innocent, but that the first husband share's the guilt. She could still elect to remain single.
 
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