Is that just a cultural deterrent? It’s not an issue in other parts of the world.
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Dancing like David danced
- Thread starter Shadowjak's Dancer
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Many parts of the world are unapologetically pagan too. They don't have issues with a lot of things.
If someone wants to go primal, go all the way. Sleep naked on the ground, under a banyan tree, while wiping your hind parts with your hands, eating raw grubs and picking lice out of your hair. All power to you. I'll keep my Fruit of the Loom.
I guess I’m just just digging.. is it a sin? If it’s not prohibited, why would believers say it is wrong?
Is polygamy a sin? If it’s not prohibited, why do believers say it is wrong?
Because it doesn’t fit “our” ideals?
Is polygamy a sin? If it’s not prohibited, why do believers say it is wrong?
Because it doesn’t fit “our” ideals?
I, for one, said it wasn't necessarily a sin.
I just find it interesting that the demoniac was naked and possessed, but when he was restored....
15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.....
I just find it interesting that the demoniac was naked and possessed, but when he was restored....
15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.....
1 Chronicles 15:27 states that he was also wearing a robe, is that not right? Michal's abusive speech notwithstanding, if David was wearing a robe and an ephod, he cannot be assumed to be naked. I don't know what a robe and and ephod covered back then. Are the dangly bits still showing, or is it like when grandpa wears the wrong shorts and it kinda matters just how he sits?
It's not just Eastern Europe.
Topless is topless, not naked.
Pagan is a mindset too.
I'm going to leave this thread before I get too chippy.
Do as y'all please.
Which still implies at least some level of clothing.
Agh, why did I forebear to mention that also?
Yea, nude beaches, and nude goers are not uncommon either.
This is interesting. There is no command to not go naked or wear a certain level of dress and my default position is always that if scripture is silent then it is not a sin, even if it's not profitable or advisable.
I find the Peter anecdote instructive. He apparently had no qualms being naked in an appropriate setting (I can think of all kinds of practical reasons why fishermen of that time and place would go nude) but when he was going to meet the Lord he took a coat even though it would be harder to swim with it around his waist.
On a personal level I would probably be okay with going naked, although it probably wouldn't result in humility for me. I can promise you though that I would have a major problem with any one entrusted to my care doing the same. It just wouldn't work. Not very many men are wired for that.
I find the Peter anecdote instructive. He apparently had no qualms being naked in an appropriate setting (I can think of all kinds of practical reasons why fishermen of that time and place would go nude) but when he was going to meet the Lord he took a coat even though it would be harder to swim with it around his waist.
On a personal level I would probably be okay with going naked, although it probably wouldn't result in humility for me. I can promise you though that I would have a major problem with any one entrusted to my care doing the same. It just wouldn't work. Not very many men are wired for that.
And I'm sure you wouldn't parade your woman that way either. I wouldn't.
I don’t think it’s a sin, i would say it is sort of a non-issue. I think if it seems inappropriate in a situation, don’t do it. If it makes those around you feel uncomfortable, don’t do it. The law of love applies, but we have freedom in Christ. Just don’t use your liberty to make others stumble.
The fishermen were fishing at night and from a boat a little distance out in the water.
Naked amongst men, but not in a setting where there were women.
Notice that they had clothing along, they would have been able to cover up when approaching the shore, or possibly when it became light enough to discern clearly. We don’t know for sure.
Naked amongst men, but not in a setting where there were women.
Notice that they had clothing along, they would have been able to cover up when approaching the shore, or possibly when it became light enough to discern clearly. We don’t know for sure.
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I have a friend that has preached whilst naked, on multiple occasions, to a people who are always naked.
Better him than myself.
No, it isn’t a nudist colony, it is a tribe that has never worn clothing. They are very responsive to the gospel being delivered by one who respects their customs.
Better him than myself.
No, it isn’t a nudist colony, it is a tribe that has never worn clothing. They are very responsive to the gospel being delivered by one who respects their customs.
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I'm not aware of direct commands to wear clothes, only regulations regarding the clothing and of course there are modesty ethics in wisdom literature.
In this week's torah portions acharei-mot & k'doshim,
command to not mix certain fabrics in your clothes:
Lev. 19:19 אֶֽת־חֻקֹּתַי֮ תִּשְׁמֹרוּ֒ בְּהֶמְתְּךָ֙ לֹא־תַרְבִּ֣יעַ כִּלְאַ֔יִם שָׂדְךָ֖ לֹא־תִזְרַ֣ע כִּלְאָ֑יִם וּבֶ֤גֶד כִּלְאַ֙יִם֙ שַֽׁעַטְנֵ֔ז לֹ֥א יַעֲלֶ֖ה עָלֶֽיךָ׃ (פ)
My precepts (commands) you shall keep, your cattle you shall not cross-breed, two kinds you shall not sow your field with two kinds, a garment of two kinds, šaʿaṭnēz (shatneyz) shall not be put upon you. [shatneyz is traditionally interpreted as wool mixed with linen/ it's an Egyptian word].
This one I think is fairly clear as it commands us to wear fringes (like what the woman with issue of blood touched on Yeshua to be healed), and it gives the prescription for where to put those fringes "on the corners of your clothing".
דַּבֵּ֞ר אֶל־בְּנֵ֤י יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ וְאָמַרְתָּ֣ אֲלֵהֶ֔ם וְעָשׂ֨וּ לָהֶ֥ם צִיצִ֛ת עַל־כַּנְפֵ֥י בִגְדֵיהֶ֖ם לְדֹרֹתָ֑ם וְנָ֥תְנ֛וּ עַל־צִיצִ֥ת הַכָּנָ֖ף פְּתִ֥יל תְּכֵֽלֶת׃
Nu 15:38
Speak unto the children of Israel and say unto them, that they should make for themselves fringes upon the corners of their clothing for their generations, and that they should set among the fringes a thread of techeylet (a vibrant blue color, the the color is challenged by some).
example of righteous from Judah wearing clothes (to be grabbed)
Zechariah 8:23 כֹּ֥ה אָמַר֮ יְהוָ֣ה צְבָאוֹת֒ בַּיָּמִ֣ים הָהֵ֔מָּה אֲשֶׁ֤ר יַחֲזִ֙יקוּ֙ עֲשָׂרָ֣ה אֲנָשִׁ֔ים מִכֹּ֖ל לְשֹׁנ֣וֹת הַגּוֹיִ֑ם וְֽהֶחֱזִ֡יקוּ בִּכְנַף֩ אִ֨ישׁ יְהוּדִ֜י לֵאמֹ֗ר נֵֽלְכָה֙ עִמָּכֶ֔ם כִּ֥י שָׁמַ֖עְנוּ אֱלֹהִ֥ים עִמָּכֶֽם׃
Thus says the L-rd of Hosts, "in those days when 10 men from all the tongues of the Gentiles, they will indeed grab hold of the garment hem of 1 Jew saying "let us go with you all for we have heard G-d is with you all".
idyllic state of the saints, given white robes ....
Revelation 6:11 καὶ ἐδόθη ⸂αὐτοῖς ἑκάστῳ⸃ στολὴ λευκὴ καὶ ἐρρέθη αὐτοῖς ⸄ἵνα ἀναπαύσονται⸅ ⸂ἔτι χρόνον⸃ °μικρόν,* ἕως ⸆ ⸀πληρωθῶσιν καὶ οἱ σύνδουλοι αὐτῶν καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ αὐτῶν ⸇ οἱ μέλλοντες ἀποκτέννεσθαι ὡς καὶ αὐτοί.*
And each of them was given a white robe and were told to wait yet a little while longer until might be fulfilled/completed their co-servants and their brothers who are about to be killed even as they were.
1 Timothy 2:9a
Ὡσαύτως ⸀[καὶ] γυναῖκας ἐν καταστολῇ ⸁κοσμίῳ μετὰ αἰδοῦς καὶ σωφροσύνης κοσμεῖν ἑαυτάς,...
Likewise that women with respectable clothing with modesty and moderation should clothe themselves ....
Dt. 22:5
לֹא־יִהְיֶ֤ה כְלִי־גֶ֙בֶר֙ עַל־אִשָּׁ֔ה וְלֹא־יִלְבַּ֥שׁ גֶּ֖בֶר שִׂמְלַ֣ת אִשָּׁ֑ה כִּ֧י תוֹעֲבַ֛ת יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֶ֖יךָ כָּל־עֹ֥שֵׂה אֵֽלֶּה׃
The garments (literally instruments) of man (lit. strong man) shall not be upon a woman and a man shall not dress with the clothing of a woman, for n abomination (to) Hashem your G-d anyone who does these.
The assumption here by G-d giving this command is clearly not that everyone will be naked therefore "clothed the same".
Proverbs 31:24
סָדִ֣ין עָ֭שְׂתָה וַתִּמְכֹּ֑ר וַ֝חֲג֗וֹר נָתְנָ֥ה לַֽכְּנַעֲנִֽי׃
She makes linen clothing (perhaps underwear-word disputed), and she sells them, and a belt/girdle she gives to the merchant.
So the "eyshet chayil", "woman of valor" makes and sells underwear and belts...
I'm running out the door now, I may add to these later...
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Whole new meaning to, “...I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.”
Timothy 2:9 seems to come close to a command for women at least to be clothed.
Fixed that for you.
Usually 1 Timothy 2:9 is translated with discrete; nudity is decided not discrete...
A dig into the language is also instructive...
seemly, modest, decently
modest, shame; as in, dress like you have a sense of shame
moderate, self control, sobriety; as in, not how drunk girls dress themselves
I think you get the picture. There are also hints in the OT here and there of what the Hebrews considered modest dress (ex: covering the legs); that takes a bit more digging to find.
You will notice though, in defense of David and the naked prophets, that that verse is directed at women. Those cases are also notable though in being exceptional.
My thoughts are as follows. I could be wrong. Please prove everything.
My interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:9 is that the topic is adornment and conduct, not establishing a new precept concerning nakedness.
1Ti 2:9-10 KJV; In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
I see at least two usages of the word modest;
1) A state of feminine apparel-covering which attenuates her feminine geometry so as to appear less obviously feminine and therefore less attractive to straight men. Can be used regarding male apparel also.
2) That which is simple, perhaps plain, not extravagant, not costly; i.e., a modest car, a modest house.
Sure, Paul's statement does seem to imply that the woman is clothed, but there are many other like verses. I think there is a difference between discussing a normative situation, and commanding that the norm be maintained at all times. If we presume that this is a command for women to be modest #1, then we might want a definition so we know if we're successfully doing it, and perhaps want to start making "reasonable" exceptions to this (new?) rule, for when it doesn't apply. What about for sex? God gave the coats to Adam/Eve when it was apparently still just them. Could this mean that husband/wife are required to hide themselves from each other? Sex by braille? What about shower/bathing? Physician visits? Oh, and given my experience with male/female physicians, I'd sooner take any woman in my care to a male physician than a female. Male gynecologist? Yep, definitely, but avoiding physicians all together is preferred.
Therefore, I don't suppose he is speaking about #1, but rather #2. He says "modest apparel", then He goes on to say; NOT with gold, pearls, or costly array. That really sounds like #2. So boiled down I take it as; "modest, not costly". If #1 was the topic, it seems it might be like saying "Don't live in a house with a lot of windows, live in a cheap one." I see the number of windows, and the costliness as two separate measurements.
Perhaps we have an example of normative not seeming to be a command.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
Fasting is well spoken of, and all but required on Yom Kippur.
My interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:9 is that the topic is adornment and conduct, not establishing a new precept concerning nakedness.
1Ti 2:9-10 KJV; In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
I see at least two usages of the word modest;
1) A state of feminine apparel-covering which attenuates her feminine geometry so as to appear less obviously feminine and therefore less attractive to straight men. Can be used regarding male apparel also.
2) That which is simple, perhaps plain, not extravagant, not costly; i.e., a modest car, a modest house.
Sure, Paul's statement does seem to imply that the woman is clothed, but there are many other like verses. I think there is a difference between discussing a normative situation, and commanding that the norm be maintained at all times. If we presume that this is a command for women to be modest #1, then we might want a definition so we know if we're successfully doing it, and perhaps want to start making "reasonable" exceptions to this (new?) rule, for when it doesn't apply. What about for sex? God gave the coats to Adam/Eve when it was apparently still just them. Could this mean that husband/wife are required to hide themselves from each other? Sex by braille? What about shower/bathing? Physician visits? Oh, and given my experience with male/female physicians, I'd sooner take any woman in my care to a male physician than a female. Male gynecologist? Yep, definitely, but avoiding physicians all together is preferred.
Therefore, I don't suppose he is speaking about #1, but rather #2. He says "modest apparel", then He goes on to say; NOT with gold, pearls, or costly array. That really sounds like #2. So boiled down I take it as; "modest, not costly". If #1 was the topic, it seems it might be like saying "Don't live in a house with a lot of windows, live in a cheap one." I see the number of windows, and the costliness as two separate measurements.
Perhaps we have an example of normative not seeming to be a command.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
Fasting is well spoken of, and all but required on Yom Kippur.