Back in November I read
" A suprise in psalm 83. the Magog invasion, an alternate view" by Chuck Missler.
While there are obviously many opinions that vary tremendously, at this late date (as most agree we are nearing the end of the age) we should be able to look back and see the fulfillment of many prophesies.
Recently another pastor named Chuck switched sides. Yes there are two sides to every issue, and truth, or what one accepts AS truth, divides! Chuck Baldwin has changed from supporting the Zionist state of Israel, to speaking out and exposing the fraudulent foundation of their claims. Revelation mentioned Jews who call themselves Jews and are not. I realize with all kinds of groups claiming Hebrew origins there is a lot of conflicting claims, which cannot all be true. The following is a letter I wrote Chuck Missler presenting another point of view. It is unchanged except for real names at the end.
This is offered as food for thought, to anyone with an open mind on the subject matter.
Chuck never responded, but maybe others would like to discuss the issues I brought up?
This is my response.
Chuck Missler,
I recently read your article "A Suprise in Psalm 83? The Magog Invasion: An Alternative View."
I loved the quote you shared at the close of your article, "The only certain barrier to truth is the presumption you already have it."
Presuppositions are a fact of life, and your exortation to open minded study, and reexamination of such, will always be good council. It is in this spirit of Berean open minded study, that I write you now.
The following thoughts, and points of view, obviously belong to someone with different presumptions, but may give you another vantage point with which to consider the matter.
In your article you attempt to reconcile the account of the Gog and Magog invasion (Eze 38) with the modern State of Israel. You recognise that some things have to change over there, before they fit the description of the land given in Ezekiel, but do not seem to grasp that some things cannot be changed.
Some of the puzzling contradictions you mention are, "Dwelling safely and without walls." then share that over there is a 430 mile long wall, 25 feet high, and they are continually being shelled with hundreds of missiles from Hamas and Hesbolla.
You point out that in the Gog Magog invasion, the aggressors are not the countries around Israel, as they are in Psalm 83.
Another point you brought up was that the motivation given for the Gog Magog invasion was to take a prey and a spoil, while in the psalms 83 conflict, the motivation of the neighboring nations is simply to destroy Israel.
The most obvious irreconcilable points I am aware of, are found in Exekiel 38:8 where there are two descriptors,
(1) mountains of Israel (mountain in scripture prophesy refers to a nation, or people, it is plural here)
(2)which have ALWAYS BEEN WASTE. That land has been inhabited for thousands of years.
Most people are looking for people called Jews to fulfill the latter day prophesies about Israel, but they fail to realise that Yahweh prophesied a NEW NAME for His servants. You find it in Isaiah 62:2 where there is also a footnote in my Bible that sends the reader to Acts 11:26 where is states that the disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
The scriptures call Jesus The Holy One of Israel, and the redeemer of Israel. Only Israel could be redeemed, having once belonged to YHWH but then having been sold into captivities. The term redeemed implies being bought back by a previous owner. "Ye have been bought with a price"
To take Paul's statement in Romans 11:25 about "Blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the gentiles be brought in, and so, (in this manner) all Israel shall be saved" and try and apply it to a people who have suffered complete blindness, that has lasted for 2000 years, creates huge conflicts with other passages.
Jer 31:31 says that the new covenant was to be with BOTH HOUSES of Israel, Israel, and Judah. To claim that Judah has rejected Him, is to say that YHWH tried to make the covenant with them, and failed, contrary to His word which states He would do it. The history of the house of Israel is neatly summed up in Ezekiel 36, and there is a note at the end of this letter for another explanation of why is appears Judah has rejected Christ.
Now if putting on Christ is not describing the new covenant, I don't know what does. Most Christians realize being buried with Him in baptism, and being raised a new creature in Christ, is only the begining, as being conformed to the image of His Son is the final goal. The new covenant describes a born again believer. The Bible says that Christ is the mediator of the new covenant, and that He came to confirm the promises made to the fathers. Some of those promises are found in Ezekiel 36 and include redemption, restoration, and gathering, not to the old land, but to their OWN LAND. (For OWN LAND references see Isa 14:1, Jer 23:8, Eze 34:13+25-28, 36:24, 37:14+21, 39:28) In these passages there is no mention of them having to fight for the land, or drive out other inhabitants. Those in the modern State of Israel are having to do just that, but why is there no mention of the conflict, or outcome, in these verses?
Consider the words of Jesus (These are actually YHWH's words) "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" this is stated in a current tense. One believing these words can only conclude that Israel converted, and came to be known by that prophesied NEW NAME Christian!
Now does God reward the faithful, or the unbelievers? Did YHWH lie, or did those sheep follow Him? If they did indeed follow Him, we should be looking for His servant people Israel, GOING BY A NEW NAME to fulfill the prophesies about end time Israel.
Now back to Ezekiel, where we find the prophesy of the Gog and Magog invasion. Would invading the land of a people called Jews fulfill an end time prophesy, about a people who have been going by a NEW NAME for 2000 years, or is this yet another irreconcilable conflict?
We are looking for a land brought back from the sword (recovered from war) that is gathered out of many nations, called the mountains (plural nations) of Israel. WHICH HAVE BEEN ALWAYS WASTE. (Uninhabited, desolate) Where the people dwell securely, without bars nor gates. A land of unwalled villages, where the people are at rest, dwelling safely. People which have cattle and goods, and dwell in the midst of the land. (midst of the continent)
Back in Genesis God told Jacob that a nation and a company of nations would come from him. In Genesis 48:19 Jacob prophesied over Joseph's sons and said of Ephraim that "His seed shall become a multitude of nations" and that hebrew word nations is translated from is Goy. Obviously Goy (often rendered gentile) cannot mean non Israelite, as Ephraim being a descendant of Jacob/Israel can ONLY father more descendants. (Israelite means a descendant of Jacob/Israel) Now the ten tribes never fulfilled these prophesies under their old name(s), but the descendants of Ephraim, who were scattered into the nations, redeemed by Christ, and are now going by a new name can, and have, fulfilled them.
Here in the united States of America we have 50 flags flying under the one. 50 geographical areas that have laws unique to each state. If this is not the company of nations that verse prophesied, where else in history has it existed? Again, if the usa is not the mountains of Israel that get invaded by Gog and Magog, who else fits all those descriptors PERFECTLY!
Most biblical comentators agree that Gog and Magog are China and or Russia, so let's see how the shoe fits a different foot.
Who holds trillions of dollars of US debt?
Who does China come against to take a prey and a spoil?
The people dwelling securely, with cattle and goods, or the people over there in a constant state of war and turmoil?
Which place is described by the prophet Ezekiel?
Look at any verse used to claim the State of Israel is fulfilling prophesy, and you find a greater fulfillment in the USA.
Can a nation be born in a day? We were! When we declared our independance July 4 1776.
All the blessings of the birthright were passed from Jacob/Israel to Joseph's sons, who inheirited in place of their father. Ephraim to be the greatest. We have been enjoying those blessings, with most people blind to why we have them.
While this is a very different view then is commonly heard, I have yet to find a scriptural argument against it. Most object because of those before mentioned presuppositions, and have objections to it that completely lack a biblical foundation.
As I wish to remain open to a better understanding, I would appreciate your thoughts, opinions, and scriptural arguments either for, or against, my current understanding of scripture.
Sincerely, Mrs. _______ (Jolene) ___________
Note: Some translations render that passage in Genesis 48:19 multitude of gentiles, or the fullness of the nations, and it is sometimes rendered the same in Romans 11:25 where Paul makes his statement about blindness in part until the fullness of the nations (or Gentiles) be come in. Gentile means from the same gens, clan or tribe, implying these Gentiles were descendants of the ten tribes.
For another explanation of why those today called Jews reject Jesus Christ, look at the Jewish Encyclopedia's entry under Edom/Edomite. It is very eye opening, and explains why Jesus denounced some who were called Jews, stating plainly that His word had no place in them, because they were NOT his sheep. It also explains His instruction to Judge by fruits. These Jews told Jesus they had Abraham for their father, and Jesus told them basically, that they were in no way like Abraham (No fruit to back up the claim) Paul in Gal 3:29 states that IF ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise, aparently refusing to recognize a claim, with no conversion to support it. There are also verses in Revelation that mention those who call themselves Jews and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan (which echoes what He told some to their face).
Judging by fruit, and recognizing the semitic, Israelite roots of the group today referred to as "the church" in no way prevents, or excludes other families of the earth (called strangers in scripture) from joining themselves with the Israelite Christians. It does however exclude from "chosen people" status, those who, by choice, are anti christ (bearing no fruit in His kingdom).....no matter what they call themselves.
in the times past the prophets were ignored and thought foolish...
