Hey it is me again with a new topic, weigh in. I have noticed that people disapline their kids like they are criminals. What I mean is that their discipline is punishment for them doing wrong. From what I understand the purpose of discipline is correction not punishment. Correction is parental, punishment is penal. One is family oriented the other is government oreinted. One is parents dealing with children the other is government is dealing with criminals. The bible in hebrews 12 likens God dealing with us as sons and uses the word chatisement, which means correction. You see punishment is tit for tat, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, just weight and balance, pay for their crimes. The word chasten means correction so its not that our children pay for their wrong but that they learn not to continue in it. So the question arises do we punish or correct our children? Do we deal parentaly or penaly? Let us be honest. Let me say this I am not talking about methods of correction just differences of correction and punishment and if anyone sees the differences.
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correction or punishment
- Thread starter cbv3123
- Start date
Well, I don't have kids yet, (20 or more on the way though) so take my response for what it's worth. I can kinda understand what you're saying here and the way that you understand it, but the way that I have learned and researched is that the age of the child comes into consideration a lot of times.
The younger children are not able to understand reason yet and so punishment will work better with the way that their minds work. Their minds are able to grasp the formula of "action = result". If that action were running through the house when told not to and then breaking an heirloom vase then the result would be angry parents and a tingly rear end. That child would associate disobedience with discomfort both emotionally and physically.
As the children get older then reason and correction would have more effect. For instance, if junior gets a speeding ticket then the correction might be restriction/surrender of driving priveleges by Dad plus legal recourse. This in effect might bring about discomfort as well in the form of roaming ability and socializing being extremely limited. (Now of course some teenagers might consider this to be nothing BUT punishment).
Keep in mind too that correction and punishment go hand in hand a lot of times and are very much the same thing in most instances. If the punishment is constructively fit for the crime then the punishment is also correction. Example: Junior doesn't mow the lawn like he's supposed to so the punishment is not only mowing the lawn, but also weed eating, weed pulling (by hand), mulching the flower bed, etc. All this on the same day of the week that he's wanting to do something.
The younger children are not able to understand reason yet and so punishment will work better with the way that their minds work. Their minds are able to grasp the formula of "action = result". If that action were running through the house when told not to and then breaking an heirloom vase then the result would be angry parents and a tingly rear end. That child would associate disobedience with discomfort both emotionally and physically.
As the children get older then reason and correction would have more effect. For instance, if junior gets a speeding ticket then the correction might be restriction/surrender of driving priveleges by Dad plus legal recourse. This in effect might bring about discomfort as well in the form of roaming ability and socializing being extremely limited. (Now of course some teenagers might consider this to be nothing BUT punishment).
Keep in mind too that correction and punishment go hand in hand a lot of times and are very much the same thing in most instances. If the punishment is constructively fit for the crime then the punishment is also correction. Example: Junior doesn't mow the lawn like he's supposed to so the punishment is not only mowing the lawn, but also weed eating, weed pulling (by hand), mulching the flower bed, etc. All this on the same day of the week that he's wanting to do something.
Interesting thought - you are certainly right that the PURPOSE of Godly parenting should always be correction (for the betterment of the individual), and not punishment for revenge or proving a point. But I'm not sure we can so easily discern a parent's METHOD as appropriate or not: a time out, a "consequence" that involves losing a valued privilege for a time period. How about "spare the rod, and spoil the child"? Isn't that capable of correction when delivered with loving judgement, not anger? Are we sure we can judge a parent's motive from a distance? Surely, they (should) know what motivates toward betterment, what gets to the heart of their children, and works toward removing their natural born sin nature, better than we do. And no two children are the same - I certainly use different consequences for my 4 children.
Hebrews 12:6 says because we are God's children, and he loves us, we're going to get "scourged"!! (Actually, I see the NIV and others translate that as "punish"!)
I think our motivation, born out of love for our children, is paramount here - i.e. if we punish because we are annoyed, not for their improvement, then we clearly have a problem.
This is a good place to plug again the best parenting book we've read - better than anything Dobson in my opinion (though not dis-similar): John Rosemond's Parenting by The Book: Biblical Wisdom for Raising Your Child
Hebrews 12:6 says because we are God's children, and he loves us, we're going to get "scourged"!! (Actually, I see the NIV and others translate that as "punish"!)
I think our motivation, born out of love for our children, is paramount here - i.e. if we punish because we are annoyed, not for their improvement, then we clearly have a problem.
This is a good place to plug again the best parenting book we've read - better than anything Dobson in my opinion (though not dis-similar): John Rosemond's Parenting by The Book: Biblical Wisdom for Raising Your Child
faithfulfatherof9
New Member
Yeah, i see a lot of parents at walmart trying to quiet screaming kids with punishment. Perhaps they need to try correcting their children with praises and rewards for good behaviour, rather than punishment and verbal attacks for bad behaviour.
If a parent maintains a positive attitude and shows a lot of praises and encouragement, perhaps they wont have to spend much time punishing their children for stuff.
I have to say that i think my children have developed vey good moral judgment. I dont remember ever having to punish my children for stealing, lying, etc,... but i have sure had to do my share of settling sibling disputes. I got two boys at home right now, 13 and 15. The older tends to tease and taunt the younger. The younger gets his feelings hurt, then unleashes his fury on his big brother. I have had to break up quite a few of these exchanges. A couple weeks ago i remeinded the older brother that one of these days he's gonna reach his peak and stop growing, and little brother will catch up. He better hope they get things worked out before then. He knew what i was getting at, because i have two older sons, 33 and 31. It was same with them, then little brother caught up and outgrew the older brother, The younger stand 4 inches taller, 30 lbs heavier, all muscle. Maybe my disclosure made him think, because things have seemed to settle a lot lately.
Anyway, correction can involve both rewards to encourage good behaviour, or punishment to discourage bad behaviour.
Paul
If a parent maintains a positive attitude and shows a lot of praises and encouragement, perhaps they wont have to spend much time punishing their children for stuff.
I have to say that i think my children have developed vey good moral judgment. I dont remember ever having to punish my children for stealing, lying, etc,... but i have sure had to do my share of settling sibling disputes. I got two boys at home right now, 13 and 15. The older tends to tease and taunt the younger. The younger gets his feelings hurt, then unleashes his fury on his big brother. I have had to break up quite a few of these exchanges. A couple weeks ago i remeinded the older brother that one of these days he's gonna reach his peak and stop growing, and little brother will catch up. He better hope they get things worked out before then. He knew what i was getting at, because i have two older sons, 33 and 31. It was same with them, then little brother caught up and outgrew the older brother, The younger stand 4 inches taller, 30 lbs heavier, all muscle. Maybe my disclosure made him think, because things have seemed to settle a lot lately.
Anyway, correction can involve both rewards to encourage good behaviour, or punishment to discourage bad behaviour.
Paul
Nathan7 said:
The Dobson I read "The New Dare To Discipline" was great and very educational in my opinion. I haven't read the other guy though. I might have to start looking for that one.
You know one thing that I tend to observe when talking about this subject with different people is that a lot of differences in opinion tend to arise with regards to geographical location. Anyone else observe that as well?
When it comes to useful books on parenting, I'm very partial to "Pareting With Love & Logic" and "Parenting Teens With Love and Logic", along with absolutely any materials from www.loveandlogic.com . Along with their materials for sale, their are lots of materials free to download as well as some very entertaining and thought provoking free audios.
I agree that the object is correction, not punishment, though the CHILD may not yet be mature enough to discern the difference.
And agree also that different methods can be effective at different ages, though it seems that with creative thought more effective means than a paddle can usually be discovered and used. A paddle is, too often, the lazy parent's copout.
The theory of this site runs sorta as follows: It is our job as parents to give the child every opportunity to grow into functioning mature adults in the real world via the experiences they've had at home.
In the real world, we do things, experience logical consequences, think them over, make corrections, and try again. The more we can give kids the sense that they are capable of doing just that, from lots of experience, the better they'll be able to handle the real world. Also, in the home, we can teach these lessons while they are far cheaper to learn.
Sassing mom and getting a swat on the butt is far cheaper to the kid and to society than sassing a police officer and/or a judge years later, and getting tossed in jail, for example. Borrowing from the folks, defaulting, and having a $30 stereo repossessed at age 10 is cheaper than having a $20,000 car repoed years later.
A classic example that comes to mind is how they dealt with food at their home. Two little girls came to stay with them for a time. First meal, that evening, the author's wife made a nice meal. As the food was passed, the first little girl said, "We don't LIKE that!" Second little girl said, "Yeah, we don't LIKE that".
The dad (author) said, "Noooo problem! The good thing about living with us is that you don't have to eat ANYTHING you don't want to!" and passed it on. Soon everyone else was chowing down, and a little voice piped up, "What's for US?" Mom grinned and answered,"BREAKFAST!" and went on eating.
Next morning, there was a repeat, with the cheerful answer, "Lunch!" and off they went to school.
That evening at dinner, the first one starrted in with "We don't LIKE that" only to get a sharp elbow from her sister, who said, "Shut UP, you idiot! Yes, please, I'll take some peas." Problem solved.
I contrast that with the way I was brought up, where resistance to repulsive food ensured a liberal helping being dumped on my plate, and my being made to sit there, for hours if need be, until I'd eaten it all, and I wanna grow up to be JUST LIKE the authors of the Love and Logic books!
I agree that the object is correction, not punishment, though the CHILD may not yet be mature enough to discern the difference.
And agree also that different methods can be effective at different ages, though it seems that with creative thought more effective means than a paddle can usually be discovered and used. A paddle is, too often, the lazy parent's copout.
The theory of this site runs sorta as follows: It is our job as parents to give the child every opportunity to grow into functioning mature adults in the real world via the experiences they've had at home.
In the real world, we do things, experience logical consequences, think them over, make corrections, and try again. The more we can give kids the sense that they are capable of doing just that, from lots of experience, the better they'll be able to handle the real world. Also, in the home, we can teach these lessons while they are far cheaper to learn.
Sassing mom and getting a swat on the butt is far cheaper to the kid and to society than sassing a police officer and/or a judge years later, and getting tossed in jail, for example. Borrowing from the folks, defaulting, and having a $30 stereo repossessed at age 10 is cheaper than having a $20,000 car repoed years later.
A classic example that comes to mind is how they dealt with food at their home. Two little girls came to stay with them for a time. First meal, that evening, the author's wife made a nice meal. As the food was passed, the first little girl said, "We don't LIKE that!" Second little girl said, "Yeah, we don't LIKE that".
The dad (author) said, "Noooo problem! The good thing about living with us is that you don't have to eat ANYTHING you don't want to!" and passed it on. Soon everyone else was chowing down, and a little voice piped up, "What's for US?" Mom grinned and answered,"BREAKFAST!" and went on eating.
Next morning, there was a repeat, with the cheerful answer, "Lunch!" and off they went to school.
That evening at dinner, the first one starrted in with "We don't LIKE that" only to get a sharp elbow from her sister, who said, "Shut UP, you idiot! Yes, please, I'll take some peas." Problem solved.
I contrast that with the way I was brought up, where resistance to repulsive food ensured a liberal helping being dumped on my plate, and my being made to sit there, for hours if need be, until I'd eaten it all, and I wanna grow up to be JUST LIKE the authors of the Love and Logic books!
Thanks for all the insight. Ok here is a question, how do you handle dicipline in a plural family? Do all the parents carry the same authority or do you limit the one who is'nt the mother biologicaly? I am sure diffrent families do it different ways but would love to know You guys ideas. Come guys help a sister out, trying to be prepared when the issue arises. You to ladies, I don't get to hear much from you ?
Tlaloc
Member
I know a lot of people have answered this seriously, but I have to ask weather there is anything to this other than semantic nonsense. Point in case, jails are called 'correctional facilities'.
Weather we're talking about criminals or children the point is to curb and weed out destructive actions, the only difference is in scale. We discipline children so they can discipline themselves.
Punish, strictly speaking means to give a penalty for, no mater what that penalty is its still punishment, there will be no correction without some form of punishment, as a matter of fact punishment is part of the very definition of correction. The concepts are co-dependent. Even if the punishment is just re-doing the job the right way its still by definition punishment.
I have an idea of why such a false dichotomy would be set up, and I think a lot of it comes from not understanding the nature and intent of good law.
The fool Gandhi might have said 'if its an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth everyone would walk around blind and toothless' but the reality is that most people under such laws are forced into respecting others and not doing something to them that they would not have done to themselves. The odd case where a middle eastern thief gets his hand cut off serves to deter many others from crime. On the other hand our recent method of incarceration essentially sends petty criminals away to criminal training camp so they come out with new skills and expertise to offend again, worse than ever. The punishment spelled out in Old Testament Law is not about vengeance, its about protecting the innocent and maintaining social order. There are certainly many cases where vengeance is a motive in the Old Testament, but not here. Tit for tat, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, and just weight and balance are all in scripture, but 'pay for their crimes' isn't, and it's not the point.
The first point of law is to protect the innocent from harm, the second is to correct the guilty. With kids this boils down to taking whatever action most effectively teaches them what they did was out of line and prevent re-occurrence. When the justice system is functioning properly its goal is to most effectively prevent re-occurrence of crime. Its exactly the same, just on a different scale. In fact a primary goal of good parental discipline is so that that child NEVER has legitimate cause to be brought before government discipline. I can't say it better than Proverbs
Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
But I will say if someone harms a child out of revenge or anger it is not an effective way to teach them, if you're too frustrated to administer an appropriate punishment it is good to set the kid away for a minute until you regain your cool. But punishing a criminal just to make him hurt is also not a good motivation. If that's you're only point then I agree, but it sounds like you're going beyond that somehow.
Weather we're talking about criminals or children the point is to curb and weed out destructive actions, the only difference is in scale. We discipline children so they can discipline themselves.
Punish, strictly speaking means to give a penalty for, no mater what that penalty is its still punishment, there will be no correction without some form of punishment, as a matter of fact punishment is part of the very definition of correction. The concepts are co-dependent. Even if the punishment is just re-doing the job the right way its still by definition punishment.
I have an idea of why such a false dichotomy would be set up, and I think a lot of it comes from not understanding the nature and intent of good law.
The fool Gandhi might have said 'if its an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth everyone would walk around blind and toothless' but the reality is that most people under such laws are forced into respecting others and not doing something to them that they would not have done to themselves. The odd case where a middle eastern thief gets his hand cut off serves to deter many others from crime. On the other hand our recent method of incarceration essentially sends petty criminals away to criminal training camp so they come out with new skills and expertise to offend again, worse than ever. The punishment spelled out in Old Testament Law is not about vengeance, its about protecting the innocent and maintaining social order. There are certainly many cases where vengeance is a motive in the Old Testament, but not here. Tit for tat, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, and just weight and balance are all in scripture, but 'pay for their crimes' isn't, and it's not the point.
The first point of law is to protect the innocent from harm, the second is to correct the guilty. With kids this boils down to taking whatever action most effectively teaches them what they did was out of line and prevent re-occurrence. When the justice system is functioning properly its goal is to most effectively prevent re-occurrence of crime. Its exactly the same, just on a different scale. In fact a primary goal of good parental discipline is so that that child NEVER has legitimate cause to be brought before government discipline. I can't say it better than Proverbs
Pro 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pro 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
But I will say if someone harms a child out of revenge or anger it is not an effective way to teach them, if you're too frustrated to administer an appropriate punishment it is good to set the kid away for a minute until you regain your cool. But punishing a criminal just to make him hurt is also not a good motivation. If that's you're only point then I agree, but it sounds like you're going beyond that somehow.
ceramicsgirl
New Member
I think that many people out there think that correction and punishment do not go hand and hand. After you punish the child you should always sit down. Make sure that he or she is listening to you. Look them in the eye and tell them what they did wrong and why they got in trouble for it. If you want them to grow up and be good members of society than you must correct and punish them. God said in Proverbs 29:15 "The rod and reproof give wisdom; But a child left to himself causeth shame to his mother. " I think that God knows how unruley child can be and gave us a wisdom to follow. I do believe that if you are to angry at said child you should remove yourselve from the issues until you have a clear head.
In answer to your second question I believe that every parent should have equal authority because if they don't than the children will know that they can get way with things. If a parent doesn't have equal authority it would be total choas.
Anndrea
In answer to your second question I believe that every parent should have equal authority because if they don't than the children will know that they can get way with things. If a parent doesn't have equal authority it would be total choas.
Anndrea
A
Anonymous
Guest
Everything we can know about God is designed to be taught by example in a loving, just family. Dad acts out the role of God, Mom takes the role of christians, children being being the mission field. Discipline and punishment work in a human family the same way as in the family of God. Isaiah 53:6 tells me that God does not punish His own because Jesus took it for us. He does commit himself to discipline His own. Punishment exacts a penalty. Discipline corrects with speaking, depriving or spanking or whatever to bring about a change of behavior. God spare us from parents that punish their own children.
John Whitten
John Whitten
A
Anonymous
Guest
CecilW said:
Cecil,
Excellent advice ! These books are wonderful. I've read this book and the one dealing with teenagers :roll: They were a big help. I highly recommend them to all parents.
Blessings,
Fairlight
I do believe God punishes his own...I know because I have been there. Moses was not allowed to go into the promise land...that was his punishment for disobeying God. I punished my daughters when they did wrong....if they were caught lying it was a paddling with no questions asked. The punishment must be in line with the offense. The result is I have two loving daughters that are leaders in their class, very moral, they come home and talk to mom and dad about school and boyfriends, asking for advice. I fully believe the reason our nation is going away is people stopped punishing their children. We also rewarded the good. One of my daughters just passed her driving exam....we had a party that night for her. Its sad the church has bought into the lie that you cannot punish your children....if you love them you will punish them. My daughters never once questioned if I loved them....they knew once the punishment was over they were cuddled and comforted...and it was not brought up again. I thank God he keeps punishing me...thats one of the ways I know he still loves me. God bless.
I see what you are saying cbv, you are dealing with motives not methods. Yes, I agree the motive should always be correction out of love, regardless of what methods employed. Not anger or debt based punishment. As far as your second post goes, here is my thought. Certainly each wife deserves respect from the others children but it is up to the biological mother to insure that. Yes, I know you think the same so dont smite me at dinner.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Corey said:
Corey
Dont use this site to try and get out of the dog house, by agreeing with your wifes post. Be a man and stand on your own two feet. It took you a long time to get in the dog house, and it will take you a long time to get out. I know all about being in the dog house. One good thing about having two wives, is its not the same dog houseevery night. I just alternate days in each. The fastest way to get out of the dog house is to keep a spare key to the dog house in your wallet. On second thought, from what you have told me that might not be the best place to hide it. She will surely find it there. Maybe you should hide it in your work boots. No, bad idea you dont ever wear them. We have to come up with a place that you will have with you when you are in there. How about your pants? No that wont work either, cause she will be wearing them. I got it, hide it somewhere in the dog house. We still have a problem. How are you going to unlock it from the inside?
After further thought you have two choices one of which might be too hard for you.
1 Dont get into trouble, and learn these words "Yes Dear"and "would you like the remote?"
2. Buy a Plasma TV and put it in the dog house,and have cable run to it. This is of course with Brooke's permission. I don't know about the permission part, because its lots easier to get forgiveness than permission.
Your on your own on this one. Take your computer with you and finish writting that thing you said you would do for me. On second thought, since your wife can't do without the computer, Take a pad of paper and a pen.
A true friend
Stan ( This isn't my real name. You know who it is. I Don't want my wives to know its me.)
WHO DAT!
I just skimmed through the posts, but I don't think I saw anyone talk about training unless that is what you mean by correction? The best book we have found regarding parenting is "To Train up a Child" by the Pearls. The premise is that often parents discipline or punish their children when they never taught the child how to act in the first place. As parents, it is our job to take the time to "train a child in the way he should go..." To answer the original question, I think we should 1. Train/teach 2. Correct when behavior needs corrected based on what has been taught and 3. Punish when there is outright disobedience. I think God does the same thing with us. He teaches us through His Word and often corrects us through it and for our times of outright disobedience, there can be certain consequences that sometimes feel like punishment. But with punishment, correction is crucial as well. Like in a spanking, you don't just spank a child - you take a decent amount of time to talk to them about the offense and love on them.
The other question was how is discipline handled in a plural family? In ours, it is a 'it takes a village' mentality. I do not have a problem with SW correcting the children I gave birth to and vice versa. That's kind of vague, so perhaps you were looking for more than that.
Another good book for parenting is "Pursuit of Godly Seed" by Denny Kenaston. The book also has some great chapters for husbands and wives along with the parenting aspects.
The other question was how is discipline handled in a plural family? In ours, it is a 'it takes a village' mentality. I do not have a problem with SW correcting the children I gave birth to and vice versa. That's kind of vague, so perhaps you were looking for more than that.
Another good book for parenting is "Pursuit of Godly Seed" by Denny Kenaston. The book also has some great chapters for husbands and wives along with the parenting aspects.