Good morning Brothers and Sisters, the below is my reply to my messenger friend, I would your 2 cents, I just want to make sure I am going about it correctly. So here it is, they will be separated by Tom said and Edward says.
Tom said:
Righteous Job, a man who had one wife, refused to even consider marrying a second wife to the point of making a covenant with his eyes so that he would not "look upon a young woman" (Heb. #1330 "Bethulah" meaning "virgin")
Edward says:
Tom this is basic marriage 101, a man can choose to have only one wife or he can choose to have multiple wives. The choice is up to him.
Tom said:
Job 31:1-4 I have made a covenant with my eyes; Why then should I look upon a young woman? 2 For what is the allotment of Elohim from above, And the inheritance of the Almighty from on high? 3 Is it not destruction for the wicked, And disaster for the workers of iniquity? 4 Does He not see my ways, And count all my steps?
Edward says:
Job 31:1-4 KJV I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid? (2) For what portion of God is there from above? and what inheritance of the Almighty from on high? (3) Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity? (4) Doth not he see my ways, and count all my steps?
First off I would like to point out that there is a BIG deference between “think”kjv and “look” your version. Your version has look so I will go with that below.
Tom said:
Why would Job keep his eyes from looking at virgins if he could take a second wife any old time?
Edward says: The answer to your question is in the first part of verse 1...
yours, I have made a covenant with my eyes;
mine, I made a covenant with mine eyes;
Tom said:
She must not have wanted that and he knew how serious a matter it was to sin against his wife.
Edward says:
Job made a covenant and if he broke that covenant it would be a sin, not only against his wife but also against YaHWeH.
Tom said:
Understanding the importance of this also clears up Yahushua's statements in light of polygamy. We know a man cannot divorce his wife for any reason and marry another. But if polygamy were acceptable in all cases, he could simply marry an additional wife rather than divorcing the first one.. or divorce the first wife after marrying the second wife! And, in fact, if polygamy were acceptable in all cases, divorce and remarriage would not be adultery at all. It would just be polygamy!
Edward says:
A man can/should NOT do what is a direct violation of Torah.
I am GLAD you mentioned Yahshua, after all He IS like His Father YaHWeH who in Ezk 23 protrays Himself with two WIVES and Yahshua the bridegroom in Matthew 25 takes 5 FIVE virgins... Matthew 25:10 KJV And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
And NO they were NOT bridesmaids, bridesmaids do NOT get shut in with the bridegroom.
Tom said:
We should remember that there is about a 50/50 chance of a child being born a boy or a girl. For this reason, there is usually an equal number of men and women in society. In the United States, 49.12% of the population is male and 50.88% of the population is female (2002 data). If we lived in a society where there were significantly more women than men, I could see some legitimacy for a man having more than one wife rather than multitudes of women being sentenced to a life of celibacy. This was often the case in ancient times because of so many men dying in various wars. But if we live in a society where the number of men are nearly the same as the number of women, a man marrying one wife could potentially prevent another man from producing a seed of Elohim. It seems that these things should be taken into consideration as well.
Edward says:
since you brought numbers into this, I looked at the numbers. and WOW!!!!
First lets look at your 2002 numbers. According those percentages 1.76% of women WILL be sentenced to a life of celibacy.
Now lets look, starting in 2010 and coming to 2020. In 2010 there is 157.97 mil. Females and 151.77 mil. Males with a difference of 6,200,000 WOMEN being sentenced to a life of celibacy.
With the steady increase of women from 2010 to 2020 we are now at 2020 with 169.22 mil. Females and 162.59 mil. Males with a difference of 6,630,000 WOMEN being sentenced to a life of celibacy.
BUT with Polygyny a man having 2 or more wives, these women have a chance at marriage. For us Torah observant men we get to look forward to this prophecy... Isaiah 4:1 KJV And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Tom said:
Also, it is a sin to do things, even lawful things, to cause others to stumble. If you are walking around town with multiple wives l, you WILL ruin your witness.
Edward says:
Tom I am assuming you are referring to this passage... 1 Corinthians 8:9 KJV But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
This particular passage is talking about idols and eating things that are offered to idols. Please read the whole chapter. Saying walking around with multiple wives as you put it “you WILL ruin your witness” Is like saying I will ruin my witness with a large, modest YaH fearing family. Because society and the Church thinks we should only have 1 or 2 children.
Remember Tom YaHWeH would never regulate sin... Exodus 21:10 KJV If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
And if having more than one wife why in the world would YaHWeH tell David...
2 Samuel 12:8 KJV And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
Roughly translated meaning all you had to do is ask and I would have given you more wives. Remember David was only rebuked for the sin of Uriah the Hittite not for having multiple wives.
1 Kings 15:5 KJV Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
The above verse would have been a great time to say polygyny was a sin but all that was said is David did that which was right in the sight of YaHWeH.
Tom said:
Righteous Job, a man who had one wife, refused to even consider marrying a second wife to the point of making a covenant with his eyes so that he would not "look upon a young woman" (Heb. #1330 "Bethulah" meaning "virgin")
Edward says:
Tom this is basic marriage 101, a man can choose to have only one wife or he can choose to have multiple wives. The choice is up to him.
Tom said:
Job 31:1-4 I have made a covenant with my eyes; Why then should I look upon a young woman? 2 For what is the allotment of Elohim from above, And the inheritance of the Almighty from on high? 3 Is it not destruction for the wicked, And disaster for the workers of iniquity? 4 Does He not see my ways, And count all my steps?
Edward says:
Job 31:1-4 KJV I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid? (2) For what portion of God is there from above? and what inheritance of the Almighty from on high? (3) Is not destruction to the wicked? and a strange punishment to the workers of iniquity? (4) Doth not he see my ways, and count all my steps?
First off I would like to point out that there is a BIG deference between “think”kjv and “look” your version. Your version has look so I will go with that below.
Tom said:
Why would Job keep his eyes from looking at virgins if he could take a second wife any old time?
Edward says: The answer to your question is in the first part of verse 1...
yours, I have made a covenant with my eyes;
mine, I made a covenant with mine eyes;
Tom said:
She must not have wanted that and he knew how serious a matter it was to sin against his wife.
Edward says:
Job made a covenant and if he broke that covenant it would be a sin, not only against his wife but also against YaHWeH.
Tom said:
Understanding the importance of this also clears up Yahushua's statements in light of polygamy. We know a man cannot divorce his wife for any reason and marry another. But if polygamy were acceptable in all cases, he could simply marry an additional wife rather than divorcing the first one.. or divorce the first wife after marrying the second wife! And, in fact, if polygamy were acceptable in all cases, divorce and remarriage would not be adultery at all. It would just be polygamy!
Edward says:
A man can/should NOT do what is a direct violation of Torah.
I am GLAD you mentioned Yahshua, after all He IS like His Father YaHWeH who in Ezk 23 protrays Himself with two WIVES and Yahshua the bridegroom in Matthew 25 takes 5 FIVE virgins... Matthew 25:10 KJV And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
And NO they were NOT bridesmaids, bridesmaids do NOT get shut in with the bridegroom.
Tom said:
We should remember that there is about a 50/50 chance of a child being born a boy or a girl. For this reason, there is usually an equal number of men and women in society. In the United States, 49.12% of the population is male and 50.88% of the population is female (2002 data). If we lived in a society where there were significantly more women than men, I could see some legitimacy for a man having more than one wife rather than multitudes of women being sentenced to a life of celibacy. This was often the case in ancient times because of so many men dying in various wars. But if we live in a society where the number of men are nearly the same as the number of women, a man marrying one wife could potentially prevent another man from producing a seed of Elohim. It seems that these things should be taken into consideration as well.
Edward says:
since you brought numbers into this, I looked at the numbers. and WOW!!!!
First lets look at your 2002 numbers. According those percentages 1.76% of women WILL be sentenced to a life of celibacy.
Now lets look, starting in 2010 and coming to 2020. In 2010 there is 157.97 mil. Females and 151.77 mil. Males with a difference of 6,200,000 WOMEN being sentenced to a life of celibacy.
With the steady increase of women from 2010 to 2020 we are now at 2020 with 169.22 mil. Females and 162.59 mil. Males with a difference of 6,630,000 WOMEN being sentenced to a life of celibacy.
BUT with Polygyny a man having 2 or more wives, these women have a chance at marriage. For us Torah observant men we get to look forward to this prophecy... Isaiah 4:1 KJV And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Tom said:
Also, it is a sin to do things, even lawful things, to cause others to stumble. If you are walking around town with multiple wives l, you WILL ruin your witness.
Edward says:
Tom I am assuming you are referring to this passage... 1 Corinthians 8:9 KJV But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
This particular passage is talking about idols and eating things that are offered to idols. Please read the whole chapter. Saying walking around with multiple wives as you put it “you WILL ruin your witness” Is like saying I will ruin my witness with a large, modest YaH fearing family. Because society and the Church thinks we should only have 1 or 2 children.
Remember Tom YaHWeH would never regulate sin... Exodus 21:10 KJV If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
And if having more than one wife why in the world would YaHWeH tell David...
2 Samuel 12:8 KJV And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
Roughly translated meaning all you had to do is ask and I would have given you more wives. Remember David was only rebuked for the sin of Uriah the Hittite not for having multiple wives.
1 Kings 15:5 KJV Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
The above verse would have been a great time to say polygyny was a sin but all that was said is David did that which was right in the sight of YaHWeH.
