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Completely round the bend...

I consider myself a skeptic, and not like the typical 'subscription-to-skeptics-magazine' type of skeptic. I think most of the people that identify as skeptical are truly only critical of traditionalism while just as blindly accepting of modern secularism. They scoff at an intelligent designer, for instance, but swallow abiogenesis as fact despite every proof to the contrary.

So what I am saying is that I would be willing to believe absolutely anything, or trash any long held belief, if presented with convincing evidence.

I have looked into flat earth before, and found it unconvincing. As FH said, the observable evidence points to a globe. Human witnesses have seen the globe, and I don't find convincing motive for all of them to lie and for thousands of images and videos to be faked. Those that have traveled to the south pole can testify that it is indeed a point in the middle of Antarctica, and not a 150,000 mile long border of a disk; and I don't find convincing motive for all of them to lie and fabricate evidence either. I also don't see that a flat earth is necessary for Biblical interpretation.

However, an argument for a geocentric model of the universe is much more interesting to me, because of the personal philosophies of those that have tried to disprove it, and the many failures of important experiments attempting to prove that the Earth at all moves.

Michelson and Morley's failure, and their reasons for needing success are a great beginning. Einstein's initial theory, created as a band-aid for their colossal failure, and his own reasons for needing to debunk geocentrism, follow. Then quantum theorists, as well as other massive experimental failures. The very expensive failure of NASA's Gravity probe B is even more shocking in my view than the simpler yet just as troubling failure of the Pioneer probe.

At best, even Einstein himself admitted that his theories couldn't and weren't meant to prove heliocentrism, but rather provide a framework where a 'center' of the universe was only relative.
 
FH- If your weather has been anything like ours, you will NEVER have a clear day :D

Jason- I'm good with geocentric, too. Inasmuch as no archangels have offered to cruise me around so I can take a good look for myself, the period in each one of my sentences has to stand for ".... but I could be wrong"
 
Well said Jason.

Slumberfreeze, have a look at this wee video, see what you think. This is a guy I watch occasionally to stretch my mind, I often don't agree with him but find him a challenging deep thinker. He makes some very interesting points about the meanings of the descriptions of the earth in scripture here, worth a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGYFreRLUpA
 
FH - NEAT!! NEEEAAT! I'm so glad I brought this up here! This gives me loads to think about. I knew the words were translated weird, but I'm slow to want to sift through them because maneuvering through Hebrew is like swimming in peanut butter for me. Also the possibility exists that the windows of heaven don't exist any more, because they were shattered in the flood? I can almost get behind that.

I like where this guy is coming from, my concept of the book of Revelation is that it's the test at the end of the class: it can only be understood if you did all your homework. Having a proper biblical understanding of all terms used (including directions and celestial bodies) is going to be integral.

I'm watching him right now. He looks like a hippie Kent Hovind.
 
Well, 3 videos later and I have to admit, he crashed and burned pretty hard at the end of his "Slavery and Marriage" video. When he got into the "Adam didn't sin, because he only obeyed natural order by obeying his wife" it amazed me. How he got that mystifies me.
 
Yes, when I said, "I often don't agree with him", I was serious, you see what I mean! He has some weird ideas. But he looks at everything from a completely different angle, so he gets you thinking. He's ex-Jehovah's Witness, now blazing his own trail, I'm not sure where he'll end up, but his musings along the way are thought-provoking. Just keep your own brain very firmly engaged...
 
I totally get that. This guy is so incredibly weird. Thank you for turning me on to him!

I can tell that I am going to come to some very different conclusions than him in a lot of things, but I can tell he's done his homework.

I like what I've seen of his responses to comments. It seems like he has maintained gentleness, which I'm learning to recognize as a virtue. There are some thinkers that I respect, and even agree with, but are high strung and defensive when responding to others. (And I have to admit, that has been a struggle for me as well) I'm realizing that it doesn't matter how factually or doctrinally correct a man is, if he can't be gentle and meek and slow to anger, he might as well keep his thoughts to himself for all the good he does for the cause of Christ.

How much vinegar have I brought to the table by being sharply pedantic just because I think I have the corner on logical thought? More than necessary, I know that.
 
It's come out sunny, I took the images yesterday. Photos taken from 380m altitude, looking south-east across the Canterbury Plains towards the sea on the distant horizon, about 50km away. Click on the image for a full-resolution version.

1: With the level completely flat


2: With the level pointing directly at the horizon


When the level was completely flat, the horizon was distinctly below the level. Were the earth flat, the horizon should appear in line with the level. This drop is consistent with the earth being a sphere.

If the level is pointed directly at the horizon, the bubble indicates it is on a noticeable angle. This confirms the horizon is truly dipping away below level.

The earth down here, it is a sphere.
The earth for you, it should be too.
 
Those are some very nice pictures! I'm going to exempt you from suspicion of being an undercover NWO misinformant and accept your data as genuine and accurate. :D

Also that is a lovely view. I also appreciate your taking the time to take these pictures. The level is an especially nice touch.

Please excuse me as I translate your measurements of civilization into my tribe's runes. I interpreted your altitude at first as 380 miles, which blew my mind. I was like... "Well shoot I guess from that high up everything would HAVE to be below eye level...."
 
It would be very easy for me in my day job as an undercover NWO misinformant to doctor those images, but fortunately I did this on my own time so chose to be more accurate. Couldn't find a way of taking a single photo with both the bubble and the horizon visible at once - I did try! Had to settle for the very easy to doctor version unfortunately. However you are most welcome to come and visit and see for yourself! Seriously.

Have you ever found it odd that the USA allied with the French and left Imperial authority yet retained Imperial measurements, while the Commonwealth retained Imperial authority yet adopted the French metric system? I'm always puzzled by that.
 
Slumberfreeze said:
I like what I've seen of his responses to comments. It seems like he has maintained gentleness, which I'm learning to recognize as a virtue. There are some thinkers that I respect, and even agree with, but are high strung and defensive when responding to others. (And I have to admit, that has been a struggle for me as well) I'm realizing that it doesn't matter how factually or doctrinally correct a man is, if he can't be gentle and meek and slow to anger, he might as well keep his thoughts to himself for all the good he does for the cause of Christ.

How much vinegar have I brought to the table by being sharply pedantic just because I think I have the corner on logical thought? More than necessary, I know that.

Slumberfreeze, I would give you a hug if I could after reading this. (Forgive my girly impulses) I can so relate to trying to understand gentleness as a virtue, being an Alpha Woman when needed and, dare I say, at times pushy. ;-)

FH, the problem is that Americans hate to be told to change anything. I was told we were switching over to metric in Middle School. Still waiting for that to happen......
 
I am one minute in and am already thankful I don't have to talk to pastors.

16:47 "It's not even God talking" ouch... well you know some of us believe that every word is inspired by scripture...

18:29 Deliberate misrepresentation. Prophets often quote God and use the first person. All he's been doing here is throwing shade on the pillars, not illumination.

"It's poetic.. but if you need it to be literal Jonah talks about bars which are synonymous with pillars"

I will listen to the rest of this later, but he's already put me in a foul mood.
 
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Slumberfreeze, *I BELIEVE you CAN NOT KNOW these things. Read the last chapters of JOB 40-42.
Job 42:3 Surely I spoke about things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.(HCSB version)
BUT, I still admire you for bringing it up and causing us to think critically about the scriptures. You inspire me tremendously just by brining up the issue. You are probably smarter than me. I am ok with that. Again, I consider your thread-question a blessing moving us to think deeply about "God's" world and the right interpretation of His Word. Indeed you are exemplifying II Tim 2:15.

*All caps is not screaming, just mine vocal emphasis
 
His tone and attitude may be less than ideal, but I was looking past that at the content. He does a good job of discussing every single key scripture used to suggest that scripture requires a flat earth, and showing why this is not the case through scripture itself, and logic. He clearly wishes he didn't have to address the issue because he finds it ridiculous, and that attitude is very evident, but looking past that at the actual scripture he cites he makes a very solid argument - so solid you can understand his frustration and tone.
 
...that attitude is very evident, but looking past that at the actual scripture he cites he makes a very solid argument - so solid you can understand his frustration and tone.
Agreed. His list of "why is this even here" at the beginning was right on. Those verses have nothing to do with "flat earth".

That this is even a thing, just really blows my mind.
 
In my never ending quest to be less sane than the Jones's, I have discovered that I needed to push harder.

Not content with simple alienation, I demanded more and have reached a new personal best.

I now literally and not even joking believe that the earth is not a sphere, but is in fact a flat(ish) circle that is not spinning or moving at all.

The beginning of this is the reality that my bible calls the earth "immovable" at least 4 times, which I cannot seem to resolve; when the scientific community would tell me that the earth is spinning and revolving around, and being dragged along by the sun. So, far from being immovable, the earth is literally incapable of doing anything BUT move.

Someone's gotta be wrong here, and I've made my choice. I'd rather distrust NASA than my bible.

There's more to it than that, but I didn't intend to try and lay out the whole case for the flat earth here. Mostly I just showed up to assure you that I wasn't resting on my nutbar laurels.

I hope someone feels slightly more grounded now, at least by comparison.



I'm new here. This is my first post on here, though I've been ninja'ing it for a couple of weeks (I refuse to call it lurking) hehe. This is an interesting topic, one that I'm not sure anyone KNOWS. A very interesting book unintentionally addressing this issue is the book Ancient Knowledge by George Curtis and is available on amazon.
Well worth the money imho. In it he was studying the mathematical correlation of Stonehenges circles. The short answer is that he claims (fairly convincingly imo) to have discovered an equation hidden in the layout that can be used to determine the astronomical properties of our solar system. The crazy thing is that although he comes at it from the planetary model that we are most familiar with of being heliocentric, the equation only works if you assume a geocentric starting point.
 
Hi... Ok, your name is too long, you shall henceforth be nicknamed VV. If you're not cool with that, let me know, I don't wish to offend. So, hi VV and welcome to Biblical Families! I'm glad you've decided to make an account and post something. We'd love it if you posted an introduction so we can get to know you better. And you'll find that plenty of people (including myself), ninja'd it for quite a while before posting :).
 
Thanks for the welcome. That was fast. I just posted an intro but didnt see it up yet. Maybe a time delay? That doesn't offend me but maybe there's a better handle, veritas? The double v reminds me of the double 'Daleh'. Not sure I want to be that guy ! But I'm good with whatever.
 
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