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Christian Liberty

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It was suggested that this topic be continued in a new thread, so here it is.


Jim wrote,
John what kind of liberty does a believer have within the Church as far as PM is concerned?
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Jim, I think it is a compound question. First, the believers liberty in Christ, second, the believers liberty within the churches.
(1.) As believers we have been given the liberty of sons of God. We are not bound in that liberty by the laws of men. We have been given the Word of God and indwelt by the Spirit of God to be our guide and empowerment. When we consistently read His Word and listen to the Holy Spirit's leadership they are the one and same voice, giving us confirmation that this is the right way. Each Christian man is a priest before God for his family and has all the responsibility of a priest by representing God to them, by example, by teaching precept and principles of the Word (Bible) and of representing them before God by serious searching of the scriptures for God's direction for his family, as well as being an intercessor in prayer for them. This is the duty of a husband and father, a patriarch. The liberty we have as believers allows us to seek the throne of God without hindrance and to follow our conscience as led by God in ministering to our families.

(2.) As believers within a church, we have less liberty, yet greater obligation. In a church setting we are part of a larger unit than our family. As men we are the leader of our family, but in the church, we are part of the whole and we have representative leadership. We, by accepting that we are a part of a church have the same responsibility to submit to our church leadership as our wives do in submitting to us. In my opinion, failure to realize this role for men in the church is one of the greatest failures in polyworld. Too many men do not respect any spiritual authority and by doing so are teaching rebellion to their families. We do not have the authority in the church to demand that everyone believe and behave the same as we do. If we have discovered Biblical truth, such as plural marriage, we need to behave responsibly and lovingly as brethren in the assembly.

I think this is a good course of action:
A. Know what we are talking about, make sure we are right and can teach this truth to others. Do not expect others, including pastors and teachers to abandon life long beliefs just because you are excited.
B. Be confident and sure in your demeanor. Hesitation and uncertainty on your part sends a message before you even speak. It says, "I hope this is right and I want it to be for some reason I am ashamed to mention." Boldness and confidence will often carry the field before the toughest of foes.
C. Be loving and do not make every new issue a matter of separation. Make the brethren more important than any non-salvation belief issue. You are a part of that body and not the head.
D. Pray, pray, pray, pray for yourself as to your belief and for your brethren that God will open their heart. You cannot be the ultimate teacher of truth, it must be the Holy Spirit.
E. Be patient, without compromising your own beliefs. How long were you a believer before you discovered this truth (plural marriage or anything else)? Give them room to grow and learn. Your new truth is only new in your life and circle, it's been around somewhere else for a long time. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun and that is quite accurate.
F. Be prepared. It is possible that a new truth will not be accepted by your church. That doesn't mean they are not saved, just bound in their own tradition. If that is the case, I am sure the Lord has been trying to teach them other things also and gotten nowhere. Therefore you need to be prepared to leave of your own volition (if the issue is important enough to you) or by the will of the church. Neither is a pleasant prospect, but is included in the liberty of a believer in a church. It may be necessary for you to function as the priest/pastor of your own home worship for your family. Such is the responsibility of a patriarch.

This is written with a lot of you and yours included, not meant for you personally, Jim, but for all of us.
 
Hear, hear. Possibly the best stated article on this subject yet. IMO, it should be copied into the teaching section.

So long as we choose or are able to function as members of an existing congregation, our goal must be unity -- not the stirring up of ruckus!

That is, of course different from accepting their decrees as to what is believed, taught, and practiced within the more nuclear body of our own family.

Yet, we always have the option to be pleasant and respectful, even while going our own way.
 
Very well written. I second the motion to include this in the Teaching section. It should be required reading for all.
 
In my opinion, failure to realize this role for men in the church is one of the greatest failures in polyworld. Too many men do not respect any spiritual authority and by doing so are teaching rebellion to their families.
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This is indeed a very prevalent issue among those in this persuasion of thought. Many men have been burned and thus they now have shut down and refuse to be accountable to anyone other than themselves. A man who will not be a disciple of any other man is teaching and training his women not to be a disciple of him. It is like dominoes.

Of course we see pastors too fail at this. Many pastors want to pastor alone too which is a bad model for their sheep. It is why in the Bible you always find a pastor in leadership with others and not alone. Shepherds need shepherds too just as each disciple is to be making a disciple as he or she is also discipled by someone older than them in the Lord or in an area of life.
 
It's probably better for one to remain in fellowship with a local congregation if at all possible. A Pm family could be an example for others to SEE, and if one isn't in a PM family, but believes it to be righteous, they could share it in an appropriate way. Sometimes being a thorn in someones side is good. Since PM isn't very common, most Chuches haven't had to deal with it, making it very easy for leadership to simply brush it off when it's brought up. For them, It's like taking the path of least resistance, since most people are not aware of PM being righteous. In my local Church, the issue of PM has only been spoken of by the pastor a couple times, and then used to expose unrighteouness of Islam and Mormonism. That is what most people think of when someone mentions PM, Islam or Mormonism. I think we need to get the message out about Christian PM. Many years ago, I thought that anyone living together without either a marriage license or having had a traditional wedding, where living in sin. Wow, was I shocked after discovering the truth, and that lead me to searching for more. But unfortunately, there are many Christains today still thinking that way. If only they really knew the Lord Jesus Christ, they could be set free.
 
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
A man who will not be a disciple of any other man is teaching and training his women not to be a disciple of him.
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I can't leave this unchallenged.

1 Cor 11:3 makes the chain of submission very clear. Wife to husband to Jesus to YHWH Father God. Where does another man fit in?

If a man is not holding himself accountable to anyone, your theory may hold true. But if a man is actively and visibly holding himself accountable to Jesus, then he is giving a direct example of direct submission to his direct head. Any wife refuses to follow that example cannot validly claim this as an excuse.

Is there value in leadership and mentors, and fathers in the faith? Of course. Proverbs tells us that there is benefit in a multitude of counselors. But submission? If it isn't in the stated chain of command, it isn't right!
 
CecilW said:
Dr. K.R. Allen said:
A man who will not be a disciple of any other man is teaching and training his women not to be a disciple of him.
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I can't leave this unchallenged.

1 Cor 11:3 makes the chain of submission very clear. Wife to husband to Jesus to YHWH Father God. Where does another man fit in?

If a man is not holding himself accountable to anyone, your theory may hold true. But if a man is actively and visibly holding himself accountable to Jesus, then he is giving a direct example of direct submission to his direct head. Any wife refuses to follow that example cannot validly claim this as an excuse.

Is there value in leadership and mentors, and fathers in the faith? Of course. Proverbs tells us that there is benefit in a multitude of counselors. But submission? If it isn't in the stated chain of command, it isn't right!
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i agree, this judgementalism of anyone who has not found a leader or group that he can fully support is not at all in keeping with Yeshua's desires.
and if ones answer would be to be in submission to a leader or group that one mostly agrees with, how is that submission? submission being a pretty much black or white concept.
partial submission, or conditional submission just does not qualify as submission.
but yet submission to an earthly authority is what people are being judged on.

btw: anyone who believes in polygyny and is "in submission" to a church or leader who does not believe in polygyny is not in submission to that leader or group.
 
A man who will not be a disciple of any other man is teaching and training his women not to be a disciple of him. It is like dominoes.
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I disagree with that statement.

Abraham was a patriarch...he taught his "household" his beliefs in God, so much so that when Hagar ran away the first time SHE knew who was talking with her because she gave the name El Roi "God Who Sees".

When a person actually opens the cover of a bible to read for themselves, rather than depend on another person to tell them what the bible says, will soon realize whose disciple they will become.

God doesn't want everybody...just those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

Just sayin.
 
Interesting indeed that there is such a strong reaction to the idea of discipleship or respect for spiritual authority.

In my definition of things this statement by Pastor John, who is someone I am grateful to be a disciple of, said:

Too many men do not respect any spiritual authority and by doing so are teaching rebellion to their families
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and this statement of mine

A man who will not be a disciple of any other man is teaching and training his women not to be a disciple of him.
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are saying the same thing. Respect for spiritual authority and being a disciple of someone older in the Lord means the same thing in my vernacular.

Jesus spoke of the Great Commission as we call it. Go and make disciples. A disciple is a student. Spiritually older men are to make disciples of spiritually younger men in the faith (2 Tim. 2:2). That is discipleship, or in another term it can be called a younger person respecting the older person and listening to him and learning from him.

Jesus disciples people through other people. If that is not true then then we have no way to answer or explain Matthew 28:18-20.

As for me I am a disciple of even the man who said what was said. I am grateful to be a disciple of Pastor John as well as other leaders here. Just this week I contacted several of them and talked to several men who I am a disciple of to gain some wisdom and help as I explored what is the wisest and most biblical way to handle something. At times they even gave me not just wisdom but instruction on what to do and ways to do it.

Maybe there is confusion over some terms here and there is a fear that being a disciple means being a pawn in the hand of another. If that is how one sees discipleship then by all means I am not for that either.

But that is not how the biblical definition of discipleship is properly defined. Peter told the elders not to lord over or domineer over those under their care (1 Peter 5). Lording over someone is not the same as discipleship. The first is sin and the second is the methodology of the gospel.

Discipleship is a process where a person looks up to another and respects him or her enough to learn all he or she can from that person and then the disciple takes what he or she has learned and puts that knowledge into application and practice. Why would any man not want older brothers who are more mature than he to impart unto him the knowledge and wisdom of Christ in order to be a better servant of the Lord? To reject that would it not suggest a strong dose of dose of pride at work? How would it be wise for a man to ignore and not respect older brethren in the faith who do indeed know more and are more skilled at life in the Lord?

John's point where he said:
We, by accepting that we are a part of a church have the same responsibility to submit to our church leadership as our wives do in submitting to us. In my opinion, failure to realize this role for men in the church is one of the greatest failures in polyworld.
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Pastor John as I see it is on target there. Over the years of observing men and families, and counseling along the way, I have noticed a pattern too. If the head of the family disrespects authority figures, criticizes them often, fails to show proper submission then in fact their children and families generally do that as well in various spheres of life. Men who are rebels at work and who reject leadership from employers, men who refuse to respect civil leaders, and men who speak in negative and derogatory ways about leaders in their spiritual circles, like a church community or business community or civil community, their children and family do often follow suit with the head. The children often even grow up to be those arrogant punks who wind up getting kicked out of the home because they soon reveal their disrespect for dad and mom, sometimes it even gets so bad they wind up in jail for being disrespectful to another person or to that person's property. Ladies learn that type of disrespect from their head too. A man who criticizes and disrespects other leaders lays a pattern for his lady to also disrespect him. The head teaches much by his mere actions which sometimes speak louder than his words.
 
Jim wrote:
But unfortunately, there are many Christains (sic) today still thinking that way. If only they really knew the Lord Jesus Christ, they could be set free.
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and blugrniz4u wrote:
When a person actually opens the cover of a bible to read for themselves, rather than depend on another person to tell them what the bible says, will soon realize whose disciple they will become.
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IMHO, that is the biggest problem in the Church. The average church member never blows the dust off of the Book that God Wrote. The only Scripture they ever get is that which their pastors regurgitate in the Sunday morning sermon. Some might get a bit more than that by listening to popular radio and TV preachers, but the still won't be Berean Christians and check God's Word for themselves.

As to whether or not we who believe in Biblical Family Values (BFV) but are part of a church that teaches traditional family values-monogamy only position (TFV-MOP) are truly in submission: yes, we can be. I am part of a church that disagrees with my position about BFV. I am in submission to the Council of Elders (the church follows the NT model of church government) in that I won't cause a ruckus by getting on my soapbox and proclaiming long and loud how and why TFV-MOP is a pagan doctrine. Not even when the Teaching Pastor (one of the elders) very pointedly used the story of Elkanah, Hannah, and Peninnah to "prove" that polygyny is sinful. (He called Peninnah a "brood mare" and said that it is not possible for a man to love two women. If that's true for him, I feel sorry for either his mother or his wife! :lol: )

Now, if I could find a church that teaches true Orthodox Christianity (as in they believe the Apostle's Creed) and also accepts BFV, I'd be right in the front pew. Or maybe in the choir loft! But until that happens, I will not cut myself off from fellowship with almost-like-minded believers. Fellowshipping with TFV-MOP believers is better than sitting at home by myself and wishing I had someone to fellowship with. They still love the Lord, they just don't know the truth about BFV.

A patriarch who voluntarily leaves the fellowship of a TFV-MOP church that otherwise teaches truth but will at least tolerate having the BFV family attend is wrong, unless he can find a church that teaches truth including BFV. We need each other.

But if no church will tolerate having the "evil polygamist" in their midst, then the patriarch must, of necessity, be pastor/priest to his family. (We should be anyway, even if we are part of a larger church.) That's where Biblical Families is such a blessing, even though geographically, we are scattered all over the world. At least we can connect with each other electronically, if not at retreats.

If we did not need each other, then God would take us to heaven as soon as we were born again.
 
Thanks PolyDoc :D

However, I still have a problem with the statement made by Dr. Allen:
A man who will not be a disciple of any other man is teaching and training his women not to be a disciple of him. It is like dominoes.
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Still think it is a false statement.
 
Bluegrniz4u,

Would you be so kind to explain to me the definition of discipleship as you see it from the Bible? Do you think men should disciple other men (2 Tim 2:2) and that the student (disciple) should respect, or honor, or yield to righteous spiritual authorities over him? I'm curious as to how you view the Great Commission process of discipleship (Matthew 28:18-20).

The way I have been taught and the way I read Scripture patriarchy is about spiritually older men training up younger men and the man growing in his maturity so that he can effectively lead a woman and children to be liberated from the evil and powerful grip of sin that dominates the heart and minds of each person born. Parenting is about discipleship too and all parents want their children to respect them and learn from them.

Patriarchy, as I understand it, is about men leading the way in the gospel, training other men to be free from sin in the Lord, and in turn taking that new life found in the Lord to other people who come under their sphere of influence. Helping a man to grow in grace is a means unto the end of helping a family grow in grace and then generations beyond.

Do you have some biblical definition concerning respect for spiritual authority and the process of that in discipleship that presents something different? If please do share because the models I see in Scripture align very well with what Pastor John was saying there as I see things. Paul told those under his sphere of discipleship to imitate him as he imitated Christ (1 Cor. 11:1). The writer of Hebrews told those disciples he wrote to that they should remember their leaders and imitate their faith (Hebrew 13:7). To imitate another means to study the mentor or leader or teacher enough so that he can receive from them what is true and apply it in one's own life. Interestingly, the very next phrase is that Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever, and thus that phrase is couched in the context of discipleship or imitating leaders who have imitated Christ. We are to imitate leaders today who teach us to be like Jesus. The principles lived out by Jesus that he passed along to his disciples and received by others who in turn come along and pass those principles off to us so that we too can in turn go and pass them off to another.

Do you see some other definition for respect for spiritual authority presented in the Bible? If so how do you explain the texts above? I agree with Pastor John that sometimes the head is indeed teaching his family to rebel by himself being a rebel and by his actions of being disrespectful to spiritual authority. I would add that being disrespectful to authority in any sphere can influence those under your care to be disrespectful to you. People learn, especially our family, by watching what we do.

Respect does not mean blind allegiance nor does it mean imitating unrighteousness but respect for spiritual authority is the heart of what discipleship is all about. Certainly the disciples around Christ respected him and I'm sure they went out to teach others who respected them for what they had received from Christ. A younger person finds an older person in the Lord and learns from him and then goes out and applies those truths he has learned in his own life as he serves others with grace and truth.

But maybe there is another definition you have found that I have not seen. Please do share what you think the Bible says about respect for authority and how that works in the process of discipleship.
 
Why don't you just start your own church?

B
 
The head teaches much by his mere actions which sometimes speak louder than his words
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The essence of leadership is for one to lead while another follows by example. Simply trying to command someone to follow isn't going to work very good, in fact it often leads to abuse.
 
Isabella said:
Why don't you just start your own church?

B
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That's exactly what often happens when there are disagreements, thus the reason for all the different denominations. My question is, how far should one push the issue of the importance of marriage, PM, and FV within a church? Is it wrong to speak up and question leaders? How should one go about exposing an error of the Church locally? Is there a wrong way to go about it?
 
Ok, thanks Jim, I don't want to take the thread off on a tangent so just asking whether a fairly open Polygamous Church would be an asset to the cause and possible could create the community so many of you seek without feeling that you are compromising some of your principles?

Just a thought,
B
x
 
I once heard a christian educator advise christian parents on how to talk to principals and teachers in their kids public schools. He advised them to not go in yelling, threatening and challenge them. He said, they are professionals that need to be treated with respect in their fields. Respect their position and use facts and logic presented in a calm reasonable way, was his advice. Imagine how you would react if someone were to barge into your home or office and start telling you that everything you were doing is wrong, demanding immediate change with no reasons given. Most of us would just dig in our heels and resist on principle rather than truth. The Bible says, a soft answer turns away wrath and granny says, you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar.
I believe we would be wise to fully know our topic and have a plan for presenting it in a kind, gracious manner, backed up with a life that supports our truth we are desiring to teach.

Isabella, I'm guessing that such a church would be problematic IF they made polygamy the main issue. I think a balanced program is best. However, it may come to starting our own churches. Someone once said, " it is easier to build boys than it is to mend men." So maybe starting from ground up may be best in some cases.
 
Guess I was too tired last night to make a coherent thought regarding my disagreement with a previous statement by a most learned scholar.

A man who is truly a disciple of Jesus Christ will by definition be living by those commandments...all the thou shall nots and remember the sabbath....oh yeah they are called The Ten Commandments.

So by being a bible reading, Jesus loving person, perhaps one finds organized religion to be a huge hypocritical, legalistic farce of Pharisee's mingling together to show off and look down upon others on the ONE DAY OF THE WEEK that the Roman Catholic church changed for worshipping over one thousand years ago just because it could.

Yes, the bible tells us to go into all the world and make disciples... of Jesus Christ.

When you need brain surgery you don't ask a podiatrist for a consult.

My point is spiritual authority should be about Jesus, not man. Traditions of man is no substitute for the Word of God.
 
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