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Birth Control: Is It Taking Life?

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Does any form or type of Birth Control take life?
Does BC cause children to not be born?
What does the Bible say on the subject?
When does life actually begin? Religiously? Scientifically? Legally?
How many children per woman, average, does it take for any population to just barely replace itself? Answer: 2.2
How many children per woman, average, are Christian Conservatives in America having? Answer: 1.2
When does a population whose births are only half of replacement become extinct. Answer: Less than 100 years.
Do we realize that every single sperm and egg have a completely unique DNA?
Why is there little or no discussion on the Internet of this subject?
Why are there thousands of articles favoring birth control on the Internet and elsewhere, and none opposing it?
Why does the government and "society" generally favor birth control?
Why does the Pro-life movement say hardly anything about birth control?
What is God's opinion?
Why does practically every single church advocate birth control, or not oppose it?
What is the history of church teaching on BC for the last 5000 years?
Why is this subject practically taboo?
 
Hello Founder,

I found the book and organization that I wanted to tell you abou that I could not find the link to before:
this book shows how throughout church history the truth of BC has been taught! Anyone who will post something against what you are saying needs to read this book FIRST!!!
http://www.unitedforlife.com/bibleandbirthcontrol.html

This article is great talking about the root of the problem and how modern "sex education" can destroy lives:

http://www.stopp.org/anchell.htm

I have to say also that I agree in general with you. Christians are killing their progeny because they bought into the teaching that limiting their family is like some God given right! although, I think that every child is precious even if they are not born to "good conservative christian families" because the NT gospel speaks of redemption for all who will repent and be called. I believe that it is the public school/government influence in the home thing that keeps people from being saved and from revival. I think BC and abortion are a tragedy for all facets of socirty that partake thereof. By the way lots more "conservative christians" participate in abortion that one might suspect.
 
Well, the Bible speaks a good deal about the how God evaluates different children differently. He seems to not think in any way that all are equally valuable.

He speaks of Holy Children, and un-Holy Children, clearly preferring the former, and He said He hated Esau and loved Jacob while they were still in their mother's womb, for just two examples.

Yes, redemption is for all, just like education is for all, but not all can and/or will take advantage of either thing. The Universe is inherently a totally unequal place. Even your two eyes are not equal in any way.

What I am talking about here in BC is so powerful, that it is like a super nuclear bomb greater than all others combined. It seems to be too hot to handle for most people, which is why the whole subject is nearly taboo. I have studied the Bible in great detail and try to measure every word I write against its standards.

Bottom line is, I just want to convince Conservative Believers to have a few more children as God and the nation needs them. Everything else is just discussion, argument and refinement.

Margaret Thatcher said, "First we win the argument, then we win everything else."
 
OK,

Yes Of course I understand that not everyone is equal and not everyone will be saved and God has his "elect" yet in the NT this possibility of election is opened up to a wider sphere than just the children of Israel. In other words election is no longer about who is who's child so much as about who is elect in the spiritual sense and is therefore part of the church. This is something that only is God's prerogative and not ours.

Let me explain what i mean: If God is the one that opens the womb and closes it then it stands to reason that he gives babies to who he will give babies to. He sends rain on the just and unjust. God can save someone from a heathen satanist family as much as he can fail to bring salvation to a child of a conservative christian. The second birth is the one that matters now. See?

I still believe that a christian should be obedient and be ready to let God lead the way in the number of children he will bring to a family and not manipulate that in any way. The heathen will always want to be in control of this. Just as they sacrificed their babies to their Gods (Baal) after birth in OT times so they do it today to the God of convenience, career and such. As in so much christians have been drawn into this sin.

Your point seems to be more a political one like: The muslims are having to many babies, we need to catch up!!! I understand and agree, believe me! Celibacy is what killed the shakers off! Voluntary, indeed, enthusiastic sterility is what is killing the christians off in U.S.A. Totally gross!

I guess my point where we may disagree is that I care about all babies because I don't know if the baby born to a heathen can one day become a child of God. It is not for me to know. Therefore just because that person has that potential to be born again is why I want them to be born in the first place regardless of who their parents may be. This is the hope of NT. Otherwise we would all still be on the outside as we were before new covenant. see?:

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

I would definitely be interested if you have a good argument and specifics about why christians should be the ones we should focus on when teaching against BC? We would not teach a sinner to sin further. I think we should teach against it in general, to the christian first, then to the gentile ;)
 
As for teaching, I think the truth should be put before everyone possible, and once someone is born we need to make the best out of that person that we can, but on the other hand, I, and society, have just so much time, and resources to expend on anything, and we must make allocation of those resources as best we prayerfully can.

IF we had unlimited time and resources then many, many things would be different as in fairy tales. In an ideal world of unlimited time and resources everything would be totally different, but it is in the very nature of this universe created by God that everything is limited, and unequal, and so we must make decisions to feed this and not feed that, to spend time with this child and not with that child, and on and on and on. Tough choices must be made all the time and there is no avoiding them.

People who yearn for a perfect world are understandable, and I sympathize, but they are not being realistic, and that kind of unreality can have tragic downward consequences.

Often it comes down to heartbreaking decisions, but they are decisions that God wants us to make, indeed demands that we make. I have only so much breath and so much time and resources and I must choose how I allocate them.

In my case, I choose to use my very limited time and resources to encourage Conservative-Believers to have more children, not out of any animus towards those who are not Conservatives and Christians, but because I can't be everything to everyone all the time.

Likewise, I would encourage people who are of good health and possess other good qualities given by God to have more children, more than I would encourage those with fewer gifts and attributes.

Because we feed our pets, are we obligated to feed every pet on earth? Or because we teach our own children, are we obligated to teach every child on earth simultaneously? Fact is, we only have so much energy, time and resources and we have to allocate wisely.

Do we water every plant in our garden, or in the world, or just the ones in our garden we believe will provide the best fruit for us. Jesus said repeatedly that if the tree bear not good fruit you should chop it down, clearly meaning people in some way. Surely he didn't just mean trees.

So, I consider it a sort of violation of the word of God to equate everything as being equal, and deserving an equal share, and it is further violation to push every difficult decision off onto God and sort of wash our hands of it. Otherwise there is no free will at all. But even instinct driven animals make hard choices about which of their children they are going to do what for. We have to face the fact that there is not equality in the entire universe, and no two of our children are even totally equal.

I'm sorry that I can't feed every hungry cat on earth, truly sorry and compassionate about it, but reality is reality, and to deny reality is to deny life itself.

Bottom line is, all I am saying is I am asking people that I know best, Conservative-Believers with good attributes, to have a few more children.

Right now, we have adverse selection going on, where the best and brightest of us are having far fewer children than the worst and dumbest. I don't think that pleases God at all. I don't think we should TELL anyone how many children to have, but we can ask and suggest as to what we think would be wise and helpful, especially on the up side of the equation.

I don't want to split hairs and get into all kinds of excepttions in special cases, as I'm just talking about generalities and voluntarism. But, people will make unwise decisions, and that is fine, but I am suggesting they make better decisions on these weighty matters.
 
Hi again Founder,

Well I don't believe in feeding every house cat. I do believe that how many children you have or don't have is God's prerogative in every case and encouraging "best and brightest" to have more is not neccesarily biblical. Is that a wrong stance? Why is no one else joining in on this discussion? I think no one wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole! Too bad. It is worthwile.
 
Why is no one else joining in on this discussion? I think no one wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole!
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Not really, Maria - although I do tend to think that Founder's last post above is a pretty good summary:

In my case, I choose to use my very limited time and resources to encourage Conservative-Believers to have more children, not out of any animus towards those who are not Conservatives and Christians, but because I can't be everything to everyone all the time.
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I have noted on a number of occasions (and on the radio in the past as well) what I would call the "converse" position, that we live in a nation which regards not only "forbidding to marry" but forbidding to bear [God-fearing, Bible-believing, Savior-obedient children especially] as obligations to the Almighty State. I even would go so far as to say that the sacrifice of "children to Molech" (to use the obvious Bible reference) is a Sacrament of the New World (State) official Religion.

(How else can you explain so many things that amount to Politically-Correct Public Policy - but hideously Bad Science; from "Stem Cell Blindness" to PC Health reporting, to PC Climate? In brief, that means the only Good Stem Cell Research worthy of -- unconstitutional, of course -- Public Funding is of the Sacramental "Embryonic" variety, even though adult stem cells have FAR greater promise and FAR superior results (imagine that!). It means most women won't hear about any connection between things like abortions and breast cancer, in spite of ribbons and TV specials. And it means that AGW -- Anthropogenic, or allegedly Man-Caused Global Warming -- is, by definition, sufficient to force the ONLY Right Answer - Global Socialism and BS like "Carbon-footprint-based Cap and Trade", when virtually every REAL engineer and scientist who doesn't draw a check at the public trough admits that the topic has far more to do with Gaia Worship than good data.)


Blessings,
Mark
 
Itsoktobesingle said:
Why is no one else joining in on this discussion? I think no one wants to touch this one with a ten foot pole! Too bad. It is worthwile.
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Actually, I'm just enjoying the reading. But, I'll throw my two cents in.

I agree that birth control is terrible on many levels. It could be considered taking life, though I can more easily equal it to preventing life. Even when speaking metaphorically of it, in reference to salvation and such, to prevent life like this is, in essence, to go out evangelizing and somehow make sure the ones you talk to DON'T get saved. Then, if they do happen to anyway... if new life is caused even though you tried to prevent it... the response is to worry and MOURN it! Indeed, if God were like people these days, he would just be happy with Jesus and throw the rest of us in the garbage. I'm really glad our Father doesn't practice birth control.

There's another reason to tell people. Be more like our heavenly Father. He doesn't prevent life. He creates it. Neither should His children prevent life. Satan prevents life. He mourns those that bypass his "birth control". He's very good at family planning.

As for who to share with, I normally start where people are at. Don't know much of anything? Start at creation. Don't know what Jesus was here for? Start with Him. Just let it flow. Is the conversation going towards life, work, school, family... birth control tends follow in there somewhere. Don't think of talking to someone as wasting time. Don't focus your attention on this kind of person or that kind. God will bring who He brings. When the time comes, pull out of your bag what ever the person seems to need. It's rejected 95% of the time anyway. Why bother seeking out a specific type of person to reject you?
 
Founder said:
Bottom line is, I just want to convince Conservative Believers to have a few more children as God and the nation needs them.
Click to expand...

I am not disagreeing or agrueing about the stance on BC. - - But God needs something from us. He who created the entire universe by speaking it into existence needs something from me, a woefulling sinful fallen creation??????

And what nation????
 
Firstly: Founder, I done fiinally found someone who could ask more hard questions faster than I could. Congratulations! Both on the original and subsequent posts.

Second: OUCH, Sadan! As is so often the case, your post rocks me.

As a young man, thinking I loved God but full of self-loathing, I took a permanent BC route. As the years have gone by God has dealt with that self-hatred, finally bringing it to the point of respect for who and what He designed me to be. And I've come to consider that one choice as the single biggest mistake of my life.

I do NOT want to kneel and hear Him say, one day, "Where are the sons and daughters I intended to give you had you not made that terrible choice?" Perhaps He will have mercy on me.

It is one of the reasons I cannot turn my back on PM now, regardless of immediate temporal consequences. It would be horrid to compound the mistake with a "Where are those I tried to place in your care through marriage?"

Whether He does or not is His business. My "Yes, Lord!" response is mine.

"Yes, Lord", with apologies for the previous, ignorant "No".
 
I agree, God doesn't NEED anything from us as He already has everything. What I should rather say, is we need to please Him, for our very lives, and our eternal lives, depend on our being able to do that. If we just honestly do what we think will please Him, the heavenly Father, and NOT us, then we are on the right track.

Now guilt is a terrible thing, but it is simply the price of not being repentant. King David was nearly the worlds worst sinner, far worse than most of us, and yet he was a man "after God's own heart." How could that be? The reason, as we all know, or should know, is David was also the worlds greatest repenter.

The Bible says, God loved David so much because David had a "contrite heart." A contrite heart is one that is constantly, continually, and comprehensively repentant. Not many of us come near that. Most of us are addicted to the Pharisaic-Bart Simpson defense, "I didn't do it, no one saw me, and no one can prove anything."

Paul said, "I am (not was) the chiefest of sinners." This at the height of his ministry. What does that make you and I by comparison?

I have 3 children, by two wives, (serial polygamy) so I am no example for anyone, and don't pretend to be. But I do one thing most Christians do not do, and that they should do, I repent, and I specifically repent the killing of my own children with birth control over time.

So I walk with my head held high, and my spirit uplifted, because my heart is pure, and my conscience clear, thanks to the grace of God bought at the price of His own son's life on the Cross. I am thereby free from all my sins, past, present and future.

Of course repentance has a price, (and many consider it a price too high) and that price is that you can never speak the same again, and your witness, if not your conduct, is forever changed. I may sin again tomorrow, but it will be cancelled by my repentance tomorrow, and somehow, someway, with God's help, I will blindly move toward His will and not my will, or the world's, will.

The same evil, godless bigotry that demonizes PM is also regularly turned loose on other targets, and babies being the most vulnerable of us all, are prime targets right in the bull's eye. And how better to take a child's life than to take it just BEFORE conception, in fact seconds before, in many cases? The lie that life begins at conception is the false underpinning and rationale for this most monstrous of crimes against life.

According the the Culture of Death that constitutes and rules our society, we can kill all the children we want as long as we do it just seconds before the expectant egg and the expectant sperm can come together. Here we have the perfect crime, and legal too.

"The people perish for lack of knowledge" and just as lack of knowledge condemns PM, lack of knowledge also condemns the not yet conceived child to death, and OKs Birth Control of all kinds, types and methods by anyone.
 
Just thought of something to add to my metaphor. People say sometimes that it's not abortive to use birth control that prevents implantation of a fertilized egg. Sometimes it's claimed that eggs are lost all the time like that, naturally, so basically what's one more? Going by the same metaphor, relating Christ to the husband, the Church to the wife, fertilization to accepting the gospel, and implantation to becoming part of the church and receiving nourishment from it, it then becomes clear what is going on spiritually. Really, it all lines up. No entry without the blood. Life given at the event, but not fulfilled until after the "birth pains" are complete, bringing the new life fully into the world. Basically being born twice, just as we are. Born in Christ and reborn at the resurrection, to glorified bodies. Now we see as through a glass, dimly. Then we shall know even as we are known. It was all created to line up. It all lines up perfectly.

I know it's all metaphor, but it's clearly built in, and I believe it has significant weight to it. Was not the desecration of the temple horrid in the sight of God? Was there not sin involved in doing such? And yet it was only a shadow of things to come... just as this shadow of salvation was set in place from the beginning, unchangeable. Yet we dare to disregard it, try to change it, interrupt it, control it. How dare mankind even think of such!

It's a scary thought to think that most servants of the Lord are caught in this twist of humanity. I'm very glad to see those that come out of it here. And yes Cecil, I'm sure you are forgiven for your mistake. You did so in ignorance. No one told you the truth. The Church proclaims otherwise. They will be judged for that. Whoa, think of all the pastors and teachers that will be judged "more strictly" in the end. Those that don't repent of teaching this worldly behavior. Scary thought.
 
Memory is a powerful teacher

I remember attending a fasting retreat where a large number of pastors of a well-known denomination were present. It was a while ago, but I can still remember absolutely vividly, like it just happened yesterday, how while sitting in the lounge I overhead a group of these pastors talking, and the subject was Vasectomies.

Several were testifying as to how blessed they were by the operation, and urging the others to consider having it done. Out of ten involved, not one said a word in opposition. I was so chilled to the bone I didn't say anything, partly as I was only an eavesdropper . Still, some of the fault was mine for not speaking up boldly, but I was just so shocked and young I couldn't speak.

At that moment, with a horrible rush of the spirit I had heard the devil speak right in front of me. I could practically smell the brimstone burning. Even though I was very young at the time, that horror struck vision has never left me.

In college, being a not so good Christian, and having no guidance either, I got a girl I was planning to marry pregnant. Her mother got hold of her and had "our" child aborted. After that I couldn't bring myself even to speak to her again, but for the rest of my life I have been haunted by that child of mine that was snuffed out murderously.

I didn't ,and don't, blame the girl, but I do blame a devil possessed society and a devil possessed church who aids and abets such crimes against God and humanity.
 
Re: Memory is a powerful teacher

Founder said:
I remember attending a fasting retreat where a large number of pastors of a well-known denomination were present. It was a while ago, but I can still remember absolutely vividly, like it just happened yesterday, how while sitting in the lounge I overhead a group of these pastors talking, and the subject was Vasectomies.

Several were testifying as to how blessed they were by the operation, and urging the others to consider having it done. Out of ten involved, not one said a word in opposition. I was so chilled to the bone I didn't say anything, partly as I was only an eavesdropper . Still, some of the fault was mine for not speaking up boldly, but I was just so shocked and young I couldn't speak.
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That is a scary thought but a wonderful eye-opener. Our culture is so focused on death rather than life that this isn't really surprising, but it still makes me reel when I think about it. We don't often appreciate the wonderful gift from God that our children are. Scripture tells us over and over how they are a blessing from Him, yet we seem preoccupied with making sure we keep His blessings at bay. We have become such a self-centered society that our VERY OWN CHILDREN are considered to be inconvenient rather than precious to us. If more Believers would really pray about this reality and take it to heart, I think we'd see a great revival of Christian young people in the churches. I certainly hope so - I have two young daughters that will be needing some righteous, Godly men to marry in 15+ years! :lol:

In His love,
David
 
The way things are going there may be nearly no such men at all. We are in the days of Sodom, only worse. And the churches are of no help, bless them. They ONLY care about money, as does the rest of society. We have to break this spell that has been cast on us, and it must start somewhere.

I'm planting this flag, we'll see who rallies around it. If we could only get as few as 5% of the population around us, we could make over society in the image of God.

Any determined united 5% can rule any society, because invariably the other 95% are divided and preoccupied with their LOVE of money and self, and their hate for their fellow man and woman. This is an historical law. Actually maybe it would only need 10 or 100 people to start the ball rolling. But where are even those 10-100?

Jewish mysticism maintains that as God looks down, that any time he cannot count 12 righteous people he will destroy the earth and all those in it. Sometimes I wonder if we are not close to that number.
 
I have no desire to argue this subject but will tell you my belief. I do not think its wrong to prevent a pregnancy but once sperm and egg unite then its wrong to prevent that human from growing. The pill does just that...it prevents the fertilized egg from inplanting and growing. We have had three children and God saw fit to take one home. I cannot wait to see her one day. There is much much more I could say on this subject but due to my situation I am to exhausted to do so. Have a blessed day eveyone.

Mr Kscouple
 
kscouple said:
I do not think its wrong to prevent a pregnancy but once sperm and egg unite then its wrong to prevent that human from growing. The pill does just that...it prevents the fertilized egg from inplanting and growing.
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I have a question for those with the medical knowledge of this process. My understanding is that the BCP prevents the egg from becoming fertilized in the first place, by maintaining more consistent hormone levels within her body so as to prevent ovulation (and therefore fertilization) from occurring. Is this not the case? If BCP's actually just prevent an already fertilized egg from taking hold in the uterus (as it seems to be suggested in the above comment), then we're really talking about aborting rather than preventing. I always wondered why they were called "BIRTH control pills" rather than "PREGNANCY control pills". Does anyone have any medical insight into the actual workings here?

In His love,
David
 
That is the way our medical doctor told us it worked. So we did not use that method. Yes it is abortion in my eyes.

Mr Kscouple
 
Words Mean Things That Have Consequences

It pays us to pay attention to the exact words and the exact meaning of the words of those who oppose us, and those who agree with us. More wars and murders have occurred due to people failing to just pay attention to what the other person actually says, not to speak of means.

Satan is a master at confusing words, and the meanings of words, and when we do the same thing we fall into step this him. Words are constantly being corrupted to mean something other than what they meant in the past. Eve was told by Lucifer, "You will not surely die." Well, that has to be the biggest twisting of words in world history. Yes she was not going to drop dead the minute she touched the forbidden fruit (whatever it was) but she would surely die in the future. By his twisting the words of God this way, he-she brought sin into the world and all our woe. God used the word death, and Lucifer twisted it to mean immediate death, and so won the argument with Eve.

Some wise person once said, "Let me define the words and I can win every argument."

Birth Control, means BIRTH CONTROL. That is it controls the birth of a child, i.e. by killing it. Preventing pregnancy means something else. Preventing pregnancy might mean something as simple as a woman resisting rape. So the manufacturers, vendors and advocates of "birth" control didn''t want to say "pregnancy" control, because that is not what they had in mind. They had in mind "controlling" the birth of a child, that is, killing it before it could advance to the next stage of its life that we call pregnancy.

Deceived, and self-deceived, Believers are hooked on this lie, and proceed to use it to defend the indefensible, that is, "preventing" of their own children being born.

I have researched this most unpopular (because it is dearest to Satan's heart) of subjects for a long time, and believe me, the more you research it, the more overwhelming the evidence becomes that birth control is simply murder when it is carried out against innocent life as it most often is. Quite similar to experiences researching PM.

There may be circumstances but those instances would be rare, and don't apply at all to the people I'm talking about. I'm talking about reasonably healthy, Believing Conservatives who are in intact marriages with homes, education, and jobs.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not justifying any sort of abortion or birth control at all, but I am just saying that even if one took into account unusual situations constantly being brought forward, that these situations do not affect anywhere near the majority of folks. So I don't deal with them, and am not interested in arguing about them. They are diversions by people who don't want to talk about the fundamental issues here. They want to drag up bizarre exceptions to try to discredit the larger case. EXCEPTIONS DO NO PROVE OR DISPROVE THE RULE.

I am only addressing those people who do not fall into these unusual categories. I'll leave the "exceptions" up to God to deal with. The people I'm primarily targeting are healthy young couples who are married, have homes, jobs, and education. What I call "the best and brightest." It is these that are having an average of 1.1 children, that is one, or two, or none. That is pure genocide, and is creating a holocaust that is bringing down our people, individually and collectively, our nation, our civilization, and our church. And that is absolutely intolerable.

There are fixes for this catastrophe, and they are worthy and needful to be discussed, and they start with our churches and their ungodly teaching, and move on to government and its promotion of the culture of death and down to the family discussion level.
 
Hi again all,

This topic is very near and dear to my heart so I cannot stay away from this thread. I have researched this topic for so many years and haved mulled it over so much because of my own experiences with all of it. I was a "pro choice" feminist for a long time! Anyway, as I said before i agree with Founder on most things including the fact that the "healthy young couples with jobs and educations" are preventing their future offspring from coming into the world at an alarming rate. I think that however is their own sinful selfish choice. Modern "education" has taught that kids are a burden so maybe those "best and brightest" are so coodled that they cannot even think of their own futures!! I think God wants his children to have babies despite their education levels. Sometimes this "best and brightest" talk seems a little like social engineering which is in and of itself a form of 'birth control". God should control birth and in fact pregnancy in the life of a believer. Pregnancy in itself is an act of faith. I do not mean that sometimes medical assistance is not advisable, such as in the case of ectopic pregnancy and other life threatening situations but the lives of at least two people should be considered at all times. Besides all the babies never being concieved due to miriad forms of BC there is also that fact that about 90% of babies diagnosed in utero with down syndrome are killed via abortion. I don't think they qualify as "best and brightest" but I digress. Ok for anyone who has an open heart about this topic here are some awesome resources I will mention again, Thye are worth mentioning:

http://home.att.net/~nathan.wilson/brthcntl.htm

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.a ... 1303195832

http://www.amazon.com/Pro-Life-Answers- ... 1576737519
 
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