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Atheists in heaven?

pebble

pebble

Member
I just came across this in yahoo news...

http://ph.news.yahoo.com/10-things-pope ... 59510.html

2) Suggesting he ( the pope) might see atheists in heaven.

This one might ruffle some feathers. In a Homily, Pope Francis suggested that doing good might be more important than believing the right things and he said, “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists.”
I know, right? Where would he get such a blasphemous idea?!? Answer: Jesus – who suggested that the Priest and the Levite (who believed all the right things) weren’t doing as good of a job of keeping the commandment to “love your neighbor” as that godless Samaritan. Another answer: The Bible, where it says, “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (I John 2:2)

Some light please?
 
All have fallen short (Romans 3:23).

1 John 2:2 identifies Christ as the one sacrifice that may atone for all people, yes. But the existence of an acceptable sacrifice is not the same as the presentation of the sacrifice. Animals of all sorts were brought to the temple, and their blood atoned for the specific sins presented. Owning or access to the animal did not constitute atonement. We all have access to Christ, but what are we to do? See Romans chapter 10.
 
God wants everyone w/him in heaven!!! But he's a gentleman, he isn't goign to force someone to be their against their will.

Now I wouldn't be suprized if God found a way to get "atheists" into heaven while being a gentleman AND keeping the laws he set (and we currently understand) for heaven-entry but there's a lot of ways to skin a cat. Remember, God is much more creative than we are - he can even time travel :-) What's to keep him from stopping time, blowing the current existance away, and restarting time again, all to give a single atheist another try?

Don't underestimate what God may do to love, protect, rescue just a single lost sheep, er, atheist. God has more options than we can imagine.
 
But I must clarify, there is a hell, and the Bible is clear there are people in it, so despite God's best intentions he isn't always sucesfull in rescueing all his sheep. I can't even imagine how sad He is to have so intimately created and known these people inside and out and then see them in pain, away from the protection and safety and joy He entended for them. Suffering. It must be unbearable for Him. Such is the risk of creating creatures with free will.
 
JustAGuy said:
.. but there's a lot of ways to skin a cat.
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Sorry, but John 14:6 says differently. If an Atheist does not know Christ, how can he come to the Father?

JustAGuy said:
...so despite God's best intentions he isn't always sucesfull in rescueing all his sheep.
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Anyone who does not get rescued is because he is running away from God. God does not fail at anything. God is not unsuccessful. He leaves it up to us and allows us to choose. You may not realize that you first stated how He does not force us to join Him and then attribute our choice not to do so as a failure on His part. If I decide not to obey a stop sign by saying to myself, "There is no stop sign" and then get smashed by a Semi as I drive through, it's hardly the fault of the stop sign.
 
There is one way an atheist can get to heaven. It's the same way any other sinner can get there:
1 Cor 6:9-11 said:
Or do you not know that the unrighteousb will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
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It's the same way the tax collectors and prostitutes get to heaven:
Mat 21:31-32 said:
Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him.
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It's the same way a criminal can get to heaven:
Luke 23:42-43 said:
And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
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So yes, atheists will certainly get to heaven... but they won't be called atheists any more! :D
 
As FollowingHim said, Pebbles, we disagree on LOTs of Biblical stuff -- except polygyny.

Personally, I have asked for the privilege of introducing Ayn Rand, an Atheist and originator of the philosophical school of Objectivism, to Jesus. I firmly expect to see her there.

At a time when I had lost my faith, God used her (atheist) writings to correct my misconceptions about Himself, and seduce my heart into an ever increasing Love affair.

Go figure. I wanna go Home, too. But got lots 'n' nots to do here in the meantime.

Finally, I join with everyone else in extending a warm welcome to our merry circus!
 
CecilW while you have her there, can you ask her where is John Galt? :lol: In finding the perfect John Galt could she have mistakenly found Jesus? :o

NetWatchR Love that example but isn't the purpose of the stop sign for everyone to stop? And did everyone stop? No. Thus regardless of fault, the stop sign failed its goal. Maybe it's just semantics? God isn't willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance...2 Peter 3:9." So Gods not at fault and his will isn't being done.

But the issue is the brokenness and disfigurement I've caused (to myself and others) by my failure to stop - and all the human pain and suffering makes God so sad, "...the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart... Genesis 6:5-6"

The only way to God is via Jesus. By "skin the cat" I mean there's ways to accomplish it which we haven't thought of. For example how was it Enoch got to God and skipped death completely? Via Jesus? Yes, but not via the Apostles' Creed! Hebrews 11 says it was by an act of faith Enoch skipped death completely. Another example: Adam and Eve couldn't have said the word "Jesus" and thus couldn't have said the Apostles' Creed but it would seem they could be in Heaven.

Across the world today there's people who haven't fully understand Jesus's name or love because of geographic, linguistic or cultural reasons - I believe they're in the same boat as Adam and Eve, "...anyone who wants to approach God must believe both that he exists and that he cares enough to respond to those who seek him. Hebrews 11"

FollowingHim said:
So yes, atheists will certainly get to heaven... but they won't be called atheists any more!
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Yes! Totally! What FollowingHim said!!!
 
JustAGuy said:
CecilW while you have her there, can you ask her where is John Galt? :lol: In finding the perfect John Galt could she have mistakenly found Jesus? :o
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Well, Jesus & John ARE two different people. And she'll be new to the city and might not yet know her way around. BUT I know just where to look:

They'll both be in the lab, discovering new applications for the power of Love!

Obvious, once clearly stated, right? Heehee! :lol:

So nice to meet another member who knows JohnG. ;)
 
Thanks.

I have nothing against atheists, per se. I'm just trying to reconcile the pope's (who's a great guy) belief (if he meant people who do not believe in Jesus will be in heaven) with John 4:16 and Romans 2:14-15.
 
Cow fam said:
I have to say that the idea that God is incapable of saving whoever He wants is not only theologically indefensible, it is bordering on blasphemy. I don't get wound up about much, but the omnipotence of God is not the place for us to stray in my opinion.
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Thanks for saying "bordering," that was gracious of you!

  • God isn't willing any should perish
  • He is capable of saving them
  • So why are there people in Hell?
It's a common question.

I say God is all-powerful. He can save whoever he wants. But to save everyone, he'd have to violate my free will, and I'm not convinced he often does that. Why? Because my free will is a gift, part of being made in God's image. If God takes back his gift then I'm just a robot - a puppet - going only in the direction the puppet-master yanks. I can't see God doing that. He seems bigger and stronger. Seems if that was the plan, he'd have just pulled Adam and Eve away from apple tree repeatedly, before they ate. We'd still all be in the garden and there'd be no need for the cross.

This probably isn't helping you sleep ;-)

With much respect,

JAG
 
This pope is an interesting character. One minute I think he's shaking up the Catholic church in a much needed way and bringing the focus back onto the essentials of the faith, the next I think he's a dangerous liberal who will simply remove what good bits there are in that church. It will be interesting to see how his papacy pans out.

JAG, God is fully capable of doing whatever He wants - He is God, the Creator. And for some really strange reason that I cannot understand but no doubt makes sense to Him, He has chosen to destine some of the people He has created for heaven, and others for hell. We don't need to understand the reason, all we need to know is that God is sovereign. Know that if you have chosen to follow Him then you are someone who He has chosen to have great mercy on, even though you don't at all deserve it, and others don't receive that mercy. This is very humbling, and should leave us in awe of our unfathomable Creator.
Romans 9:13-24 said:
As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
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FollowingHim - I agree, God does anything he pleases. Or as the great children's book series says, "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion. ...How should we know what he would do?" - CS Lewis
 
What did the Pope really say? http://www.catholicvote.org/what-pope-f ... -atheists/

Numbers 23:19
"God is not human, that he should lie,
not a human being, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?"

I agree that God is all powerful and omniscient. But for all the hypotheticals presented I must say His Word is everlasting and He does not lie.

Colossians 2:8 "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ." A modern day application would be to recognize the deceitful money-lusting nature of media as a business. Don't allow media to be your bad counsel. I encourage everyone to consider a thing for themselves, research the source, develop your own understanding and then, if there is still question, bring it to the brethren.
 
ChrisM:

Here's my idea, and the WHY behind my expectation of seeing some atheists in heaven ...

Reading their writings, it has become clear to me that, in their lifetimes, the concept of God that was constantly shoved at them was contrary to what I find in the Bible in very important ways. The 'God' that at least some of them reject is this distorted image of God.

I have no problem with that. I reject that view (those views) of God as well. He doesn't exist! And any being like that image is definitely NOT GOD!!!

So what DO I expect to see happen in Heaven? Something like this:
Ms Rand: "Whoa! Where am I?"

Me: "Hello, Ms Rand. Welcome to Heaven."

Ms Rand: "Heaven?!! How can that be? I'm an atheist, and pretty well proved that God didn't exist. If He does, this is going to be pretty confusing. The place looks great, but everything I've heard about Him sounds irrational, arbitrary, and pretty much of a hell!"

Me: "I apologize on behalf of Christians, Ms Rand. They did a pretty good job of misrepresenting Him. In fact, God is the most rationally selfish and objective Being in the universe. I firmly believe that, once you meet Him, you'll be as crazy about Him, eager to learn more of Him, and happy to be here, as I am."

Ms Rand: "Really?!! :o :shock: Let's GO! Where IS He?"

Me: "Prolly in the lab with John Galt, thinking up new applications for the power of Love."

Ms Rand: "Huh! Figures! What are you waiting for? Say! Who are you, anyway? And how did you know who I was?" ... as we begin to walk towards the Lab ...

Me: ... You get the idea
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It is entirely possible that I may have to play Paper, Rock, Scissors with JustAGuy for the privilege of making the introduction, however. Or possibly we'll get to tag-team her! :roll:

Ok, got my goalie's pads & mask on. Let the stoning begin! :lol:
 
Cecil, the sole requirement for salvation is pretty clearly outlined in scripture, and much as we may agree with someone's philosophy, it is purely on that basis whether we will see them in heaven or not. Of course, I expect to be surprised enormously by who we DO see in heaven, as no doubt some who seem very righteous will turn out to not have been true disciples of Christ, while others will be there who we never expected. But salvation is not granted just because someone is a logical thinker.
Romans 10:9 said:
if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
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True, Samuel.

But all who died in faith in a coming Redeemer will be there, correct? Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. And Scripture does say that there will be folks present who have to ask about the marks in His hands.

What about folks who have responded in life to the Spirit of Love in various ages, but never knew the name of Jesus?

Here's the thing with Ayn Rand: God used her supposedly atheist writings to straighten out my misunderstandings about and draw me to Himself many years ago. By their fruits let them be known.

So it is my OPINION only, and I readily admit it, and yes, I do have a bit of fun with chain-pulling just like anyone else, but I will NOT be surprised to see her there. In fact, judging from the fruit in my life, I do rather expect it.

But it IS strictly my extra-Biblical opinion. :)

I've got others, such as that Jesus and Paul were both probably married, etc. And while they are fun to discuss, I do try to be clear as to when I'm being Biblical & when offering opinions. If I have failed to do so so far in this thread, then I deeply apologize.

Sincerely.
 
I'm speechless. I'm laughing so hard at CecilW that I can hardly type. But then for the seriousness of the subject I'm scolding myself for laughing. And I totally agree with FollowingHim/Samuel. I'm going to stop typing now.
 
JustAGuy: Scissors! ;)
 
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