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Apostolic Authority

cnystrom

cnystrom

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EDIT: This thread was a runaway topic that started after this post in another thread and has been split off into a separate discussion.

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andrew said:
Same deal with Paul, Timothy, and Titus. It's clear from Acts and what else we know of the time period that Paul and some other guys he recruited went around the Mediterranean world preaching and planting churches. And we're privy to some internal correspondence between them, wherein Senior Apostle Paul was coaching two of his Junior Apostles and how to select and install leadership.
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One small quibble: Are Timothy or Titus ever referred to as apostles?

It seems to me that the ministers of the Gospel or missionaries would plant a church and then as soon as qualified and able men were found they were to appoint at least the first set of elders. Then later, when elders were already present the elders could then appoint more to their own ranks as needed as in Acts.

It is true that the letters in the Bible from Paul were to specific men for a specific time, situation and purpose, but it seems to me that it would be wise to follow that pattern to our best understanding for lack of any better alternative.
 
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I'm not going to recreate a whole study here, but here are some teasers—do your own study and draw your own conclusions.

Barnabas is referred to specifically as an apostle in Acts. That opens the door, so to speak.

Titus is referred to in a verse that speaks of "brothers" and then apostolos which is translated (mistakenly, at best, and possibly duplicitously) "messengers" rather than "apostles".

Look at the intro paragraphs to lots of the letters (can't remember offhand which ones). I know some specifically mention "Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy"; there may be other configurations. Then notice how the letter is written, talking about "us" this and "our" that. Note also Paul's usage of words like "brother", "partner", and "fellowworker".

And there's the whole Apollos thing (listed with Paul and Peter, referred to as brother, coworker, minister).

It seems clear from a lot of the NT that these men were 'doing the work of an apostle'. Whether you want to call them apostles is up to you (except for Barnabas; that's not).
 
The word apostolos means “sent one”. There are two categories of apostolos, ones sent by Christ Jesus and ones sent by His ecclesia. The former are the ones Who’s doctrine we are to remain steadfast in and the latter are essentially missionaries who proclaim the doctrine of the former.
 
Timothy is traditionally regarded as an apostle. I think the text refers to him that way as well but I couldn't find it last I looked.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
The word apostolos means “sent one”. There are two categories of apostolos, ones sent by Christ Jesus and ones sent by His ecclesia. The former are the ones Who’s doctrine we are to remain steadfast in and the latter are essentially missionaries who proclaim the doctrine of the former.
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Do you have a passage of scripture that breaks that down for us?
 
What I'm looking for is a verse or passage that says "there are two categories of apostles" which then differentiates those two categories the way you did.

Side note: I think our preoccupation with titles and rank is an artifact of modern corporate culture (which includes of course the corporate churches). Methinks the early church would have seen these more as job descriptions than as titles (at least until the Romans took over with their pointy hats).

Side side note: Looks like we might need to split off a new thread....
 
andrew said:
Do you have a passage of scripture that breaks that down for us?
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I think the breakdown, if there is one, are those that have recieved directly from Christ and sent by Christ. Obviously the twelve, but also Paul was careful to claim that he saw Christ, recieved from Christ, and was sent directly from Christ, meaning that he was not lessor than the twelve, or even lessor than Peter a leader of the twelve.

Thus 1 Cor 9, Galatians 1 and 2, etc.

These guys were apparently the highest authority figures in the church after Jesus.

This would be distinct from a general use of the term for something like a missionary as in Timothy or Titus or perhaps a Barnabus in Acts 14.
 
andrew said:
IIt seems clear from a lot of the NT that these men were 'doing the work of an apostle'. Whether you want to call them apostles is up to you (except for Barnabas; that's not).
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That was sort of a side note to my main point that the apostles, missionaries or church planters (whatever you want to call them) seem to have a job to appoint leadership (elders) as part of the process and that once that leadership is in place, then that leadership can self lead.

And further, that in my view this process would be a good proceess to continue to follow.
 
Revelation 21:14 KJV

“[14] And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”


There is a clear distinction of The Twelve Apostles. Now wether Matthias’ or Paul’s name is there is something we will discover when we get there. However, there are twelve that are distinct from all others who might be referred to as apostles.


Acts 1:21-22 KJV

[21] “Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, [22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.”


1 Corinthians 15:8-10 KJV

[8] “And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. [9] For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. [10] But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.”


In these verses it’s pretty clear that an Apostle is one that has personally seen the risen Lord. These apostles have the authority to establish doctrine, because they received it directly from Christ Jesus.


There is a definite distinction between the Twelve Apostles of The Lamb who established doctrine and gave us the Gospel once delivered for all the saints, and apostles that are sent out by the church as missionaries. Those sent out by the church as apostles or missionaries don’t create doctrine, they teach The Apostles’ Doctrine.
 
Asforme&myhouse said:
There is a definite distinction between the Twelve Apostles of The Lamb who established doctrine and gave us the Gospel once delivered for all the saints, and apostles that are sent out by the church as missionaries. Those sent out by the church as apostles or missionaries don’t create doctrine, they teach The Apostles’ Doctrine.
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Agreed. For example:

Ephesians 4:11 - 16

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men,and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
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As should be patently obvious, this passage is not yet fulfilled; we are still in need of apostles from Christ to help us.
 
Chris, you see that 1 Cor 9 includes Barnabas in the 'we', and that Paul distinguishes those he may not be an apostle to from those he definitely is an apostle to, and those he was sent to are the seal of his apostleship, right? So being a 'sent one' involves two things: a sender and a destination.

It wasn't the apostles' doctrine was it, really, if the whole point is that they were personally given a message from Christ to share with others? Did the apostles make up stuff, or were they faithful witnesses, who then entrusted their message to others who then carried on the same work? Make that three things (no one expects...): a sender, a message, and a delivery destination.

Think carefully about what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 9. His apostleship is to the fellowships the Holy Spirit directed him to call out and establish. He's not an Apostle in the sense that he has the corner office and a key to the executive washroom and now everybody'd better do what he says 'cause he got the promotion. He's an apostle in the sense that he is doing the work the Lord called and equipped him to do in the communities to which the Spirit sent him. The 'seal of his apostleship' is not his Damascus Road encounter, but the fellowships he has established and equipped. And apparently whatever authority he has in that sense is something Barnabas (among others) shares.

Not saying there's nothing special about the twelve. Just saying it may not be what we've been taught.

Like I said, y'all draw your own conclusions. I'm not going to split this off, but rather encourage all of us to circle back to the main topic. We'll see how that goes.... ;)
 
rockfox said:
As should be patently obvious, this passage is not yet fulfilled; we are still in need of apostles from Christ to help us.
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And we have them...in the Bible. Fortunately they wrote stuff down for us. :)

The Mormons still have 12 apostles. In a dramatic conclusion to their presentation they will bring out a foldout picture of 12 smiling men dressed in suits sitting at a boardroom table.

I think a big difference from the Bible twelve (and Paul) and the Mormon 12 is that the Bible twelve and Paul recieved directly from Christ so barrng anymore visions on the road to Damascus, I do not think there are anymore living apostles, in the church office sense.

I guess Catholics could argue that the Pope is sort of a living apostle, but I do not buy that either.

Paul said in Galatians 1:11,12 - "11 I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ."

To my knowledge we do not have anyone like this around anymore, so we go by the scriptures which I think is probably sufficient to do God's will.
 
Yeah, God probably hasn't said anything important in the past coupla thousand years.... ;)

We can keep going around on this or we can just get back to deacons and their wives. I vote agree-to-disagree.
 
andrew said:
Yeah, God probably hasn't said anything important in the past coupla thousand years.... ;)
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Just ran across this. Eusibius’ fragments or quotes from Irenaeus

Ecclesiastical History, V. XX. (pp. 495-499)

In opposition to those in Rome who were discarding the sound ordinance of the church, Irenaeus composed various letters. He addressed one to Blastus On Schism, another to Florinus, On the Sole Sovereignty[1] or That God is not the Author of Evil, for Florinus seemed to be defending this opinion. For his sake too, when he was attracted by the Valentinian error, a work was composed by Irenaeus On the Ogdoad,[2] in which he also indicates that he had himself received the first succession of the apostles, and in it, at the end of the work, we find a most acceptable notice from him which we are obliged to given in this book and it runs as follows: "I adjure thee, who shalt copy out this book, by the Lord Jesus Christ, by his glorious advent when he comes to judge the living and the dead, that thou compare what thou shalt transcribe and correct it with this copy whence thou art transcribing, with all care, and thou shalt likewise transcribe the oath and put it in the copy." May his words be spoken to our profit and be narrated in order that we may keep those primitive and truly sacred men as the best example of the most zealous care.
 
cnystrom said:
And we have them...in the Bible. Fortunately they wrote stuff down for us.
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Which does nothing to mitigate the need for people to take the Gospel to new lands and start new churches. Most churches do not like the term apostle, but they testify to the truth of what I say as they find that role absolutely necessary; putting much effort into sending and supporting church planters, missionaries, and other appellations for apostle.
 
Verifyveritas76 said:
a work was composed by Irenaeus On the Ogdoad,[2] in which he also indicates that he had himself received the first succession of the apostles,
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And? How are you reading that?
 
Okay, just checking! ;)
 
andrew said:
Yeah, God probably hasn't said anything important in the past coupla thousand years.... ;)
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I am not arguing. I am just curious. What has he said since the Bible? Who said he said it? Is it written down anywhere? What does it say? I am guessing that the Quoran and the Book of Mormon are out, otherwise you would be members of those faiths. What are you referring to?
 
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